39 replies to this topic

[hawksfanatic]

gsuteke, on 21 August 2009 - 11:00 AM, said:

They're pushing 225, right?

You are thinking of the NFL. NBA benches 185.

[AHF]

Johnnybravo4, on 21 August 2009 - 11:38 AM, said:

You know that is a myth right? Many offensive lineman in the NFL are well over 6'4 and if you ever see the worlds strongest man competitions, they are usually in the 6'3 to 6'6 range. In a bench press, the arms are tertiary. The shoulders and pectorals do most of the work.

I am entirely willing to believe that is a myth but still won't change my opinion. Does anyone think these guys should be good at guarding SGs?

Toney Douglas 15 reps
Ty Lawson 14 reps
Jack McClinton 14 reps
Mike Conley 13 reps
Sean Singletary 17 reps
Deron Williams 15 reps
Will Bynum 15 reps
Anthony Roberson 14 reps
Jameer Nelson 15 reps

etc.

[AHF]

Here are some of the reasons I figured it was true that the press was an advantage for smaller, more compact players versus the ones with longer arms:

Al Jefferson 3 reps
Danny Granger 10 reps
Brandan Wright 2 reps
LeMarcus Aldridge 8 reps
Al Thornton 9 reps
Spencer Hawes 9 reps
DeAndre Jordan 8 reps
Anthony Randolph 7 reps
Earl Clark 5 reps

I have trouble seeing Will Bynum or Mike Conley as dramatically stronger than all these guys.

I guess this just goes to emphasize that bench press may not be a great predictor for who a guy can guard in the NBA.

[jy23]

AHF, on 21 August 2009 - 05:22 PM, said:

Here are some of the reasons I figured it was true that the press was an advantage for smaller, more compact players versus the ones with longer arms:

Al Jefferson 3 reps
Danny Granger 10 reps
Brandan Wright 2 reps
LeMarcus Aldridge 8 reps
Al Thornton 9 reps
Spencer Hawes 9 reps
DeAndre Jordan 8 reps
Anthony Randolph 7 reps
Earl Clark 5 reps

I have trouble seeing Will Bynum or Mike Conley as dramatically stronger than all these guys.

I guess this just goes to emphasize that bench press may not be a great predictor for who a guy can guard in the NBA.

I do think that the likes of Deron Wiliams is stronger than most of the guys you have on that list up there. I said MOST! Being big doesn't mean that you're strong, Aldridge, Randolph, Clark, Wright, you think Deron isn't stronger than these guys??????????

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 21 August 2009 - 05:12 PM, said:

I am entirely willing to believe that is a myth but still won't change my opinion. Does anyone think these guys should be good at guarding SGs?
Toney Douglas 15 reps
Ty Lawson 14 reps
Jack McClinton 14 reps
Mike Conley 13 reps
Sean Singletary 17 reps
Deron Williams 15 reps
Will Bynum 15 reps
Anthony Roberson 14 reps
Jameer Nelson 15 reps
etc.

If they have the wingspan and standing reach, their strength would give them a great tool to guard shooting guards. Teague has the wingspan and standing reach.

[AHF]

jy21, on 21 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

I do think that the likes of Deron Wiliams is stronger than most of the guys you have on that list up there. I said MOST! Being big doesn't mean that you're strong, Aldridge, Randolph, Clark, Wright, you think Deron isn't stronger than these guys??????????

(1) Deron Williams is very strong. I don't think he is going throw Al Jefferson around on the blocks or anything but there is no doubt he is stronger than most of those interior guys who struggled on the bench press.

The only reason Williams was mentioned, however, had nothing to do with strength. Or rather, it had only to do with the fact that his strength did not translate into a real ability to guard NBA SGs who are often 6'6''-6'7'' with bigger hops than Williams. My underlying point on this thread is that no one should expect Teague to be able guard NBA SGs because he had a decent bench press, IMO.

(2) In terms of strength of the interior players who struggled on the list, my point of comparison was smaller PGs like Bynum and Conley who seem to me like they would be thrown around in the post by the same interior players who struggled. Aldridge, for example, is neither all that thick nor physical but would easily push Bynum around in the post on both ends of the floor due to simple physics, IMO.

[jy23]

AHF, on 23 August 2009 - 09:57 AM, said:

(1) Deron Williams is very strong. I don't think he is going throw Al Jefferson around on the blocks or anything but there is no doubt he is stronger than most of those interior guys who struggled on the bench press.

The only reason Williams was mentioned, however, had nothing to do with strength. Or rather, it had only to do with the fact that his strength did not translate into a real ability to guard NBA SGs who are often 6'6''-6'7'' with bigger hops than Williams. My underlying point on this thread is that no one should expect Teague to be able guard NBA SGs because he had a decent bench press, IMO.

(2) In terms of strength of the interior players who struggled on the list, my point of comparison was smaller PGs like Bynum and Conley who seem to me like they would be thrown around in the post by the same interior players who struggled. Aldridge, for example, is neither all that thick nor physical but would easily push Bynum around in the post on both ends of the floor due to simple physics, IMO.

Physics? Actually.......the density of someone like Williams or Jameer would make them harder to move than say someone like Aldridge.........according to physics. With Aldridge his weight is spread out over a larger area which makes him easier to handle, think about it.......I agree with your basic point but i just had to correct that part! lol

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 21 August 2009 - 09:51 AM, said:

Guards usually do best on the bench press

There is no point guard in the top 10.
http://www.draftexpr...0&pos=0&sort=12

You got me curious. So I took the measurements of the top 15 picks since 2001 to a pivot table in excel.

Here is what I got:

height without shoes Bench
under 6'-2" 9.9
6'2'-under 6'-4 " 10.9
6'4"-under 6'6" 10.1
6'6"-under 6'8" 12.7
6'8"-under 6'10" 12
6'10"-under 7' 11

Looks like small guards do the worst. If height is a determinant, it looks like they pick at 6'7.5".

Quote

I would not remotely expect Teague to be able to guard most SGs in the NBA.

Since 2001, the only point guard who has a bigger wingspan& reach who bench pressed more than Teague is Stuckey. Even Deron had smaller reach and wingspan than Teague.

Many point guards with much inferior physical attributes to Teague guard shooting guards regularly. How many of them have Teague's quickness?

All I care about is that Teague can play defense with Crawford next to him. Woody could just switch Crawford to play D on point guards. If Teague was weak, Woody would have been forced to give Bibby-Crawford combo too many minutes when JJ rests, and you know that combo will be annihilated. Teague's strength will allow JJ rest more.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 21 August 2009 - 05:22 PM, said:

I guess this just goes to emphasize that bench press may not be a great predictor for who a guy can guard in the NBA.

There is no one thing that determines anything. I am just glad that Teague has the reach, wingspan and strength of shooting guards. Teague's mom wouldn't think he could guard JJ/Kobe/Wade, but he can guard many SGs of this league with those physical tools.

[AHF]

jy21, on 23 August 2009 - 01:46 PM, said:

Physics? Actually.......the density of someone like Williams or Jameer would make them harder to move than say someone like Aldridge.........according to physics. With Aldridge his weight is spread out over a larger area which makes him easier to handle, think about it.......I agree with your basic point but i just had to correct that part! lol

Are you arguing that Jameer Nelson should be posting up Aldridge since simple physics shows he can move the guy around in the post?

Here are the numbers I consider key to this:

Nelson
6'0''
190 lbs

Aldridge
6'11''
240 lbs

Nelson has the stronger arms but he isn't going to throw even a skinny guy like Aldridge around who weighs 50 lbs and more than 25% more than he does.

That goes even more for guys like Al Jefferson 265 lbs, DeAndre Jordan 255 lbs, etc.

That is the physics I am talking about. When I actually lifted weights there were taller guys who I could do more sets than but who I wouldn't hope to throw around because they just outweighed me by a good amount.

* * * *

On the guards v. taller players issue, I am 100% on board with the statement that I bought into a myth that was wrong on this. After looking at the numbers, you definitely see more of a correlation between height and good bench numbers than I expected to see (although not in all cases as guys like Toney Douglas and Will Bynum show).

* * * *

On Teague now being asked to guard NBA SGs while Crawford takes the PGs, I will believe this is an effective defensive backcourt when I see it because I don't think Teague will be able to handle many NBA SGs other than perhaps combo guys like Stucky, Gordon, etc.

[Walter]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 09:17 AM, said:

Are you arguing that Jameer Nelson should be posting up Aldridge since simple physics shows he can move the guy around in the post?

Here are the numbers I consider key to this:

Nelson
6'0''
190 lbs

Aldridge
6'11''
240 lbs

Nelson has the stronger arms but he isn't going to throw even a skinny guy like Aldridge around who weighs 50 lbs and more than 25% more than he does.

It's not how many reps of how much weight you do, it's how long (total time or "work") you do it. Taller, longer players with longer wingspans have to lift further which takes more time which given the same amount of weight = more "work".

Teague has a long wingspan FOR A GUARD and certainly represents to me a (surprisingly) strong Pg, but the work he must do relative to a layer with a 7'7" wingspan given the same number of reps is MUCH less and signifies MUCH less strength.

W

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 09:17 AM, said:

On the guards v. taller players issue, I am 100% on board with the statement that I bought into a myth that was wrong on this. After looking at the numbers, you definitely see more of a correlation between height and good bench numbers than I expected to see (although not in all cases as guys like Toney Douglas and Will Bynum show).

* * * *

On Teague now being asked to guard NBA SGs while Crawford takes the PGs, I will believe this is an effective defensive backcourt when I see it because I don't think Teague will be able to handle many NBA SGs other than perhaps combo guys like Stucky, Gordon, etc.

Every group has few samples far higher & lower than the average.

*********

Me too. See = Believe.

However, Teague already has the reach, strength, wingspan & jumping ability of shooting guards and the quickness of a water-bug. His main problem will be his 175 lb weight. I don't get how a 175 lb guy with long hands can lift weights so well.


In any case,
Teague+Craford defense >>>> Bibby+Craford defense.

Until I compared Teague's measurements to other veteran guards, all I cared to notice was Teague's not so impressive height & weight, which made me conclude that Teague+Crawford won't work. With that strength, reach, wingspan and jumping ability he will play much bigger than his size. That just made me very happy.

[AHF]

jerrywest, on 24 August 2009 - 11:00 AM, said:

In any case,
Teague+Craford defense >>>> Bibby+Craford defense.

I don't have to see that to believe it, but I think Bibby + Crawford in the backcourt could be a historically bad combo defensively.

[jerrywest]

Walter, on 24 August 2009 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's not how many reps of how much weight you do, it's how long (total time or "work") you do it. Taller, longer players with longer wingspans have to lift further which takes more time which given the same amount of weight = more "work".

Teague has a long wingspan FOR A GUARD and certainly represents to me a (surprisingly) strong Pg, but the work he must do relative to a layer with a 7'7" wingspan given the same number of reps is MUCH less and signifies MUCH less strength.

W

Agree 100%.

Teague's long arms (wingspan& reach) make 13 reps look much much more impressive. That too at 175 lb only. Did Derrick Rose's friend lift those weights for him?

His bones must be made of steel. I wouldn't want to play soccer against him.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 11:04 AM, said:

I don't have to see that to believe it, but I think Bibby + Crawford in the backcourt could be a historically bad combo defensively.

I know. I mentioned in the first post that Bibby+Crawford would be one of the worst defensive backcourt in NBA history.

That is the main reason, I was so happy to find some of the surprising physical attributes of Teague. If Bibby was bigger, Teague's strength would be less important to me.