[AHF]

jy21, on 21 August 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

I do think that the likes of Deron Wiliams is stronger than most of the guys you have on that list up there. I said MOST! Being big doesn't mean that you're strong, Aldridge, Randolph, Clark, Wright, you think Deron isn't stronger than these guys??????????

(1) Deron Williams is very strong. I don't think he is going throw Al Jefferson around on the blocks or anything but there is no doubt he is stronger than most of those interior guys who struggled on the bench press.

The only reason Williams was mentioned, however, had nothing to do with strength. Or rather, it had only to do with the fact that his strength did not translate into a real ability to guard NBA SGs who are often 6'6''-6'7'' with bigger hops than Williams. My underlying point on this thread is that no one should expect Teague to be able guard NBA SGs because he had a decent bench press, IMO.

(2) In terms of strength of the interior players who struggled on the list, my point of comparison was smaller PGs like Bynum and Conley who seem to me like they would be thrown around in the post by the same interior players who struggled. Aldridge, for example, is neither all that thick nor physical but would easily push Bynum around in the post on both ends of the floor due to simple physics, IMO.

[jy21]

AHF, on 23 August 2009 - 09:57 AM, said:

(1) Deron Williams is very strong. I don't think he is going throw Al Jefferson around on the blocks or anything but there is no doubt he is stronger than most of those interior guys who struggled on the bench press.

The only reason Williams was mentioned, however, had nothing to do with strength. Or rather, it had only to do with the fact that his strength did not translate into a real ability to guard NBA SGs who are often 6'6''-6'7'' with bigger hops than Williams. My underlying point on this thread is that no one should expect Teague to be able guard NBA SGs because he had a decent bench press, IMO.

(2) In terms of strength of the interior players who struggled on the list, my point of comparison was smaller PGs like Bynum and Conley who seem to me like they would be thrown around in the post by the same interior players who struggled. Aldridge, for example, is neither all that thick nor physical but would easily push Bynum around in the post on both ends of the floor due to simple physics, IMO.

Physics? Actually.......the density of someone like Williams or Jameer would make them harder to move than say someone like Aldridge.........according to physics. With Aldridge his weight is spread out over a larger area which makes him easier to handle, think about it.......I agree with your basic point but i just had to correct that part! lol

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 21 August 2009 - 09:51 AM, said:

Guards usually do best on the bench press

There is no point guard in the top 10.
http://www.draftexpr...0&pos=0&sort=12

You got me curious. So I took the measurements of the top 15 picks since 2001 to a pivot table in excel.

Here is what I got:

height without shoes Bench
under 6'-2" 9.9
6'2'-under 6'-4 " 10.9
6'4"-under 6'6" 10.1
6'6"-under 6'8" 12.7
6'8"-under 6'10" 12
6'10"-under 7' 11

Looks like small guards do the worst. If height is a determinant, it looks like they pick at 6'7.5".

Quote

I would not remotely expect Teague to be able to guard most SGs in the NBA.

Since 2001, the only point guard who has a bigger wingspan& reach who bench pressed more than Teague is Stuckey. Even Deron had smaller reach and wingspan than Teague.

Many point guards with much inferior physical attributes to Teague guard shooting guards regularly. How many of them have Teague's quickness?

All I care about is that Teague can play defense with Crawford next to him. Woody could just switch Crawford to play D on point guards. If Teague was weak, Woody would have been forced to give Bibby-Crawford combo too many minutes when JJ rests, and you know that combo will be annihilated. Teague's strength will allow JJ rest more.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 21 August 2009 - 05:22 PM, said:

I guess this just goes to emphasize that bench press may not be a great predictor for who a guy can guard in the NBA.

There is no one thing that determines anything. I am just glad that Teague has the reach, wingspan and strength of shooting guards. Teague's mom wouldn't think he could guard JJ/Kobe/Wade, but he can guard many SGs of this league with those physical tools.

[AHF]

jy21, on 23 August 2009 - 01:46 PM, said:

Physics? Actually.......the density of someone like Williams or Jameer would make them harder to move than say someone like Aldridge.........according to physics. With Aldridge his weight is spread out over a larger area which makes him easier to handle, think about it.......I agree with your basic point but i just had to correct that part! lol

Are you arguing that Jameer Nelson should be posting up Aldridge since simple physics shows he can move the guy around in the post?

Here are the numbers I consider key to this:

Nelson
6'0''
190 lbs

Aldridge
6'11''
240 lbs

Nelson has the stronger arms but he isn't going to throw even a skinny guy like Aldridge around who weighs 50 lbs and more than 25% more than he does.

That goes even more for guys like Al Jefferson 265 lbs, DeAndre Jordan 255 lbs, etc.

That is the physics I am talking about. When I actually lifted weights there were taller guys who I could do more sets than but who I wouldn't hope to throw around because they just outweighed me by a good amount.

* * * *

On the guards v. taller players issue, I am 100% on board with the statement that I bought into a myth that was wrong on this. After looking at the numbers, you definitely see more of a correlation between height and good bench numbers than I expected to see (although not in all cases as guys like Toney Douglas and Will Bynum show).

* * * *

On Teague now being asked to guard NBA SGs while Crawford takes the PGs, I will believe this is an effective defensive backcourt when I see it because I don't think Teague will be able to handle many NBA SGs other than perhaps combo guys like Stucky, Gordon, etc.

[Walter]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 09:17 AM, said:

Are you arguing that Jameer Nelson should be posting up Aldridge since simple physics shows he can move the guy around in the post?

Here are the numbers I consider key to this:

Nelson
6'0''
190 lbs

Aldridge
6'11''
240 lbs

Nelson has the stronger arms but he isn't going to throw even a skinny guy like Aldridge around who weighs 50 lbs and more than 25% more than he does.

It's not how many reps of how much weight you do, it's how long (total time or "work") you do it. Taller, longer players with longer wingspans have to lift further which takes more time which given the same amount of weight = more "work".

Teague has a long wingspan FOR A GUARD and certainly represents to me a (surprisingly) strong Pg, but the work he must do relative to a layer with a 7'7" wingspan given the same number of reps is MUCH less and signifies MUCH less strength.

W

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 09:17 AM, said:

On the guards v. taller players issue, I am 100% on board with the statement that I bought into a myth that was wrong on this. After looking at the numbers, you definitely see more of a correlation between height and good bench numbers than I expected to see (although not in all cases as guys like Toney Douglas and Will Bynum show).

* * * *

On Teague now being asked to guard NBA SGs while Crawford takes the PGs, I will believe this is an effective defensive backcourt when I see it because I don't think Teague will be able to handle many NBA SGs other than perhaps combo guys like Stucky, Gordon, etc.

Every group has few samples far higher & lower than the average.

*********

Me too. See = Believe.

However, Teague already has the reach, strength, wingspan & jumping ability of shooting guards and the quickness of a water-bug. His main problem will be his 175 lb weight. I don't get how a 175 lb guy with long hands can lift weights so well.


In any case,
Teague+Craford defense >>>> Bibby+Craford defense.

Until I compared Teague's measurements to other veteran guards, all I cared to notice was Teague's not so impressive height & weight, which made me conclude that Teague+Crawford won't work. With that strength, reach, wingspan and jumping ability he will play much bigger than his size. That just made me very happy.

[AHF]

jerrywest, on 24 August 2009 - 11:00 AM, said:

In any case,
Teague+Craford defense >>>> Bibby+Craford defense.

I don't have to see that to believe it, but I think Bibby + Crawford in the backcourt could be a historically bad combo defensively.

[jerrywest]

Walter, on 24 August 2009 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's not how many reps of how much weight you do, it's how long (total time or "work") you do it. Taller, longer players with longer wingspans have to lift further which takes more time which given the same amount of weight = more "work".

Teague has a long wingspan FOR A GUARD and certainly represents to me a (surprisingly) strong Pg, but the work he must do relative to a layer with a 7'7" wingspan given the same number of reps is MUCH less and signifies MUCH less strength.

W

Agree 100%.

Teague's long arms (wingspan& reach) make 13 reps look much much more impressive. That too at 175 lb only. Did Derrick Rose's friend lift those weights for him?

His bones must be made of steel. I wouldn't want to play soccer against him.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 11:04 AM, said:

I don't have to see that to believe it, but I think Bibby + Crawford in the backcourt could be a historically bad combo defensively.

I know. I mentioned in the first post that Bibby+Crawford would be one of the worst defensive backcourt in NBA history.

That is the main reason, I was so happy to find some of the surprising physical attributes of Teague. If Bibby was bigger, Teague's strength would be less important to me.

[jy21]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 09:17 AM, said:

Are you arguing that Jameer Nelson should be posting up Aldridge since simple physics shows he can move the guy around in the post?

Here are the numbers I consider key to this:

Nelson
6'0''
190 lbs

Aldridge
6'11''
240 lbs

Nelson has the stronger arms but he isn't going to throw even a skinny guy like Aldridge around who weighs 50 lbs and more than 25% more than he does.

That goes even more for guys like Al Jefferson 265 lbs, DeAndre Jordan 255 lbs, etc.

That is the physics I am talking about. When I actually lifted weights there were taller guys who I could do more sets than but who I wouldn't hope to throw around because they just outweighed me by a good amount.

* * * *

On the guards v. taller players issue, I am 100% on board with the statement that I bought into a myth that was wrong on this. After looking at the numbers, you definitely see more of a correlation between height and good bench numbers than I expected to see (although not in all cases as guys like Toney Douglas and Will Bynum show).

* * * *

On Teague now being asked to guard NBA SGs while Crawford takes the PGs, I will believe this is an effective defensive backcourt when I see it because I don't think Teague will be able to handle many NBA SGs other than perhaps combo guys like Stucky, Gordon, etc.

You completely missed what i was saying. I said I AGREE with your point I just had to correct you on saying basic physics supports that point. I used examples of players that we all know instead of using something like the density of rocks, I thought you would get the point better that way. It was a science comparison, i think you knew that

[AHF]

jy21, on 24 August 2009 - 11:52 AM, said:

You completely missed what i was saying. I said I AGREE with your point I just had to correct you on saying basic physics supports that point. I used examples of players that we all know instead of using something like the density of rocks, I thought you would get the point better that way. It was a science comparison, i think you knew that

I just think that focusing on density ignores the more important characteristic of total mass. A dense rock weighing 40 pounds is easier to move than a less dense mattress weighing 60 pounds. I may still be missing what you were saying.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 01:21 PM, said:

I just think that focusing on density ignores the more important characteristic of total mass. A dense rock weighing 40 pounds is easier to move than a less dense mattress weighing 60 pounds. I may still be missing what you were saying.

Two players are not two balloons colliding. The weight is not the absolute determinant because they are actually pushing off the ground. They push the ground with their feet and push other players with their hands and body. A strong player can use the grounds mass through his strong body much better than a weaker player. A slightly heavier player can't push around Teague easily because Teague is unusually strong. The same heavy player could push around Davin Harris much more easily.

The skinny sophomore Dennis Rodman guarded Magic Johnson, Kareem and Worthy in the same game very well, because he knew how to push the ground.

[AHF]

I don't remember seeing Rodman matched up with Kareem but he is roughly the same size as Magic and Worthy.

You are talking about a 15 pound difference and maybe 1-2 inches in height -- not the 75 pounds and 10 inches Nelson is giving up to Jefferson. I have no doubt the strength helps but when you are talking about a difference of less than 10% in body weight with Rodman and a greater than 25% difference with Nelson then I think you are dealing with a whole different scale and the matchups are not really similarly situated.

But this is getting a bit hypothetical and far afield at this point. If Teague can guard SGs, I'll be thrilled. Surprised but thrilled.

[jy21]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 01:21 PM, said:

I just think that focusing on density ignores the more important characteristic of total mass. A dense rock weighing 40 pounds is easier to move than a less dense mattress weighing 60 pounds. I may still be missing what you were saying.

When you're trying to carry it yes, but the initial movement is harder with the more dense item. This is getting to educational here so b4 we go any further I'll just say that once again I agree with your first point, I went after the science part not the basketball point. I also am not convinced that he can guard these bigger 2 guards just because of his strength, like i said b4 I'm much more impressed by his quickness than anything.