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United 93


Diesel

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Ignorance truly is bliss... For somebody to believe that 2 planes had already struck the world trade Center and one on route to the whitehouse and think that it went down for "REASONS Unknown".

I'm 100% sure that you've never even read the Warren Commission report on United Flight 93?

""County Coroner Wallace Miller remembers hearing melting plastic drip from the trees, and days and weeks later, comforting the families of doomed Flight 93.

When he got to the scene, about 65 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, there was little evidence that what crashed had been a plane.

"I can just remember seeing very small bits of debris everywhere. There really wasn't any large sections of debris or aircraft," he says." - phillyBurbs (09/10/05)"

You can be on your high horse with NO basis for your opinion but what you have been fed and what you have been made to believe... But I have seen sights of plane crashes... and that hole in the ground 65 miles outside of pittsburgh was no ordinary crash... Neither would any honest expert testify to that being a "normal" crash site.

So I appreciate you staying out. I don't want your ignorance to clutter the truth. And that truth is that we live in a nation where our government has lied to us before and we really don't know what happened.

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For every"expert" who has made a claim about the crash site and the condition of it, there have been 4-5 other experts who offer counter claims as to exactly why it happened the way it did. This is no different than the absurd conspiracy theories about the pentagon and the plane that crashed into it. You know, the ones that say it was a missle fired by one of our own jets, not an actual plane. They make this claim based on the size of a hole and a lack of huge chunks of plane laying about. Or the ones who believe the towers were wired with explosives because of small puffs of smoke coming a few floors below the collapsing floors as the buildings came down.

This is what you get when you combine conspiracy theorists with people who have a completely lack of knowledge on a given subject.

I guess the woman whose husband was on the plane and while on the phone with her told her that he and some other passengers were going to try something just lied. Because it's so freaking impossible to believe that an inexperienced terrorist would actually let a plane crash, or even more un-possible, crash it himself. Especially when trying to fend off a group of passengers intent on taking control of the plane. It's so much more reasonable to think that we shot it down ourselves.

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There's no doubt that the the fight may have took place. I actually believe it's possible that those men took over the plane.

My problem comes from the crash site itself.

Think about it. That plane was carrying 11,000 lbs of fuel. It crashed... No fire. How long did it take to put out the fire at the WTC? It was like 3-4 weeks. You mean to tell me that 30 minutes later, the fire outside of Pitts was out?

There was no thick black smoke.

There was debris but no big pieces of plane...

The main problem is that the recorder box was found. There are 3 minutes at the end of the tape missing. The tape does not contain the actual crash??

Smells of a coverup.

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There was no fire by the time media crews arrived to film it. Jet fuel is basically kerosene. It flashes and burns out. It's not like other heavy oil based fuels that coat and smolder. Go watch "loose change" another conspiracy theory movie. They use this fact as a reason to question the legitimacy of the WTC fires. If jet fuel flashes out so quickly, how could the towers burn like that? opposing conspiracy theories...

The questions of the pieces of debris have been answered 100 times over. In a direct impact like that, where the plane is slammed into the ground like a missle, only so much of it is going to survive both impact and the flash. In addition to that, what debris remains will be spread over a HUGE area. Far larger than a camera in a helicopter can reliably document and confirm as a conspiracy. Especially when they're not filming it to expose a conspiracy.

As far as the flight recorder is concerned, you are simply wrong. How this could be, considering you claim to have "researched" this yourself, I do not know. But the first time that the flight recorder was played in public it was in a court room with media in attendence. THere was no 3 minute gap at the end. You hear the fights taking place, you hear the terrorists discussing what they should do, you hear the terrorist pilot turn off the auto pilot, and you hear him yell out "Allah Akbar" shortly before the plane slams into the ground...

I smell something. But it's not a coverup.

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Quote:


s far as the flight recorder is concerned, you are simply wrong. How this could be, considering you claim to have "researched" this yourself, I do not know. But the first time that the flight recorder was played in public it was in a court room with media in attendence. THere was no 3 minute gap at the end.


Click here.

Quote:


HE FINAL three minutes of hijacked United Flight 93 are still a mystery more than a year after it crashed in western Pennsylvania - even to grieving relatives who sought comfort in listening to its cockpit tapes in April.

A Daily News investigation has found a roughly three-minute gap between the time the tape goes silent - according to government-prepared transcripts - and the time that top scientists have pinpointed for the crash.

Several leading seismologists agree that Flight 93 crashed last Sept. 11 at 10:06:05 a.m., give or take a couple of seconds. Family members allowed to hear the cockpit voice recorder in Princeton, N.J., last spring were told it stopped just after 10:03.


Here's the transcript if you like what was offered.

Secondly about the debris field...

Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 note that pieces of Flight 93 were found far from the crash site and suggest that this may be evidence of a shoot-down.

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For a plane that flew into the ground, Flight 93 left a rather widespread debris field. Investigators found a second debris field three miles away from the main crash site at Indian Lake, and a third debris field in New Baltimore, eight miles away. NTSB officials suggested that the debris at these distant locations blew there in the wind after the crash, but eyewitnesses at Indian Lake saw the debris falling out of the sky, like confetti. One of the engines was 600 feet from the main debris field by some accounts and a mile by others.


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A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake.

More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash.

State police and the FBI initially said they didn't want to speculate whether the debris was from the crash, or if the plane could have broken up in midair.

Investigators later said the debris was all very light material, such as paper and thin nylon the wind would easily blow. The wind was blowing towards Indian Lake and New Baltimore at 9 knots. "According to the NTSB, it is not only possible that the debris is from the crash, it is probable," Crowley said.


Tell me which is more probable... Wind blowing debris 8 miles. Or debris falling from the sky along the flight path?

shanksville.gif

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You're basing your entire conspiracy theory on the opinions of "Several leading seismologists" about when they think the plane crashed. seismologists?? GMAFB. There is no "confirmed" gap. Only a virtual gap between when the recorder ends and when a few seismologists think the plane actually crashed. These aren't aircraft crash investigators or anyone who knows anything about airplanes.

Quote:


Tell me which is more probable... Wind blowing debris 8 miles. Or debris falling from the sky along the flight path?


If it were shot with a missle, it would explode instantly, especially considering the amount of fuel it was carrying. There would not be any impact crater worth noting as it would have exploded in air.

If it were shot down by gun, you wouldn't have a trail of debris along the flight path because guns aren't going to open up the hull. They are going to hit the engines to bring the plane down, which would look NO different than if the plane had crashed on its own.

So on one hand your theory is based on the assumed tiny crash site, which wouldn't fit either of the above scenarios. On the other hand it's based on a trail of "light" debris which also isn't supported by either of the above scenarios. The most likely scenario is that it happened exactly as all of the evidence supports.

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ou're basing your entire conspiracy theory on the opinions of "Several leading seismologists" about when they think the plane crashed.


Why not.

A plane falls at a trajectory said to be close to 90 degrees.. carrying 11,000 gallons of fuel and weight = alot. That's a lot of force striking the ground.

Who do you think would be able to pinpoint the time of the impact better...

Guys who's daily job involves monitoring seismic waves?

just for definition...

Quote:


Seismic waves are the waves of energy caused by the sudden breaking of rock within the earth or an explosion. They are the energy that travels through the earth and is recorded on seismographs.

Types of Seismic Waves

There are several different kinds of seismic waves, and they all move in different ways. The two main types of waves are body waves and surface waves. Body waves can travel through the earth's inner layers, but surface waves can only move along the surface of the planet like ripples on water. Earthquakes radiate seismic energy as both body and surface waves.


You don't think that guys who do this for a living are trustworthy?? You don't think the science can pinpoint the time of the crash within seconds??

That's laughable Chillz.

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how about you find me some other reputable and reported instances where seismologists are used to accurately pinpoint the time of a plane crash and then I might lend you some credability. I'm not talking about situations where they offered up their opinions. I'm talking specific situations where they were used as the proof because of the accuracy of their science in these situations.

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Click here to learn about Forensic Seismology.

Quote:


"Sometimes what seismology can contribute is the only information we have on the bomb," Wallace said. "That was the case in Nairobi. This was in another country, emergency response was immediate, and by the time the FBI arrived, the crater had been filled in. So it was impossible for the FBI to do its usual forensic analysis.

"In this case, the FBI actually came to us before we had the seismic records. We had to find the records and then do the analysis the FBI needed for their investigation."

"What made it more interesting is that in an effort to fully use seismic recordings from such attacks, we participated in a series of controlled truck bomb explosions conducted at White Sand Missile Range in New Mexico," Wallace said. "The idea was to learn if the type of truck used in the bombing made a difference in the size of the explosion. As a result, we developed a new set of scaling laws that relate seismic and acoustic observations directly to the explosive mass, or bomb 'yield'," he said.


Click

Click here.

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Most people associate seismology with earthquakes, but seismometers are merely sensitive instruments for measuring minute vibrations. They aren't picky about whether the source is an earthquake, a volcanic eruption or the hoof beats of a wild horse.

Explosions, however, have seismographic signatures that look quite different from earthquakes, and the sluggish, stomach-rumbling vibrations from the movement of lava beneath a volcano don't look anything like what you'd get from a meteor impact.

Currently, there are 16,000 permanently installed seismometers around the globe, many of which continuously upload their readings to the Internet. Once a seismometer is installed, it is incredibly sensitive and always tuned in.

"You may be trying to listen to one thing, but the 'noise' may tell you something unexpected," Wallace says. "We're just beginning to eke out every wiggle on the seismogram and what it's telling us."

Catastrophe's signature

Forensic seismology is a field with uses as broad as the imaginations of its practitioners. In 2000, Emile Okal of Northwestern University used it to track a gigantic iceberg as it floated away from Antarctica, scraping across the sea bottom as it went. And Vera Schulte-Pelkum, from the University of Colorado, has used it to watch storm waves crash into Canada's Labrador coast so hard that they show up on seismometers in California. By studying old seismic records, she hopes to determine whether North Atlantic storms have changed intensity since the 1930s.

But many of the most interesting applications involve the investigation of
such events as airline crashes
, mine disasters and pipeline explosions.

On the simplest level, seismic records help crash experts determine whether an airliner was intact when it hit the ground. That's important because it narrows down the cause of the crash. "If you shoot a missile at an aircraft, it never remains intact," Wallace says.

Canadian seismologist David McCormack set the groundwork for this type of analysis in the investigation of Pan Am Flight 103, brought down in 1988 over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a terrorist's bomb.

Nearby seismometers recorded six impacts, indicating that the plane had broken into that many large pieces before it hit. This was already evident from the pattern of debris at the crash site, but the seismic data allowed McCormack to calculate the kinetic energy of each piece.

Comparing this to the weight of the fragments recovered at the site allowed him to determine each piece's speed at the time of impact – information that came into play in reconstructing the explosion that ripped the jetliner apart. Such analyses are now done for other major crashes, at least when they occur on land.


QED.

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I believe their time then. But a 3 minute gap between their time and the published time doesn't prove or disprove anything. Even the conspiracy sites out there give several other explanations for why the 3 minute gap could exist. Considering how nearly all of the other myths have been debunked, I still don't buy it. Too many other factors working against it to base it on that alone.

That said, if it was shot down, would it change anything? It wouldn't for me. Would you rather honor the people on board the plane who tried to fight back to protect themselves and untold numbers on the ground or do you honor the pilot who had to take the shot. Because they both would be deserving of honor for doing what had to be done in a tough situation.

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However, when you consider...

all those "coincidences"... It doesn't neccessarily prove that the plane was shot down 100% but it does do a good job of making you think about the fault in the other suggestion.

Especially the debris fields... and the plane seen directly after the crash..

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Jim Brandt - Somerset County resident Jim Brandt said that he saw another plane in the area. He said it stayed there for one or two minutes before leaving. -The Pittsburgh Channel (9/12/01)

Dale Browning - "It's the damndest darn thing," said Dale Browning, a farmer.

"Everybody's seen this thing in the sky, but no one can tell us what it is." -The Bergen Record (9/14/01)

Rick Chaney - Chaney described the plane as a Lear-jet type, with engines mounted near the tail and painted white with no identifying markings. -The Bergen Record (9/14/01)

Susan Custer - said she saw a small white jet streaking overhead. -The Bergen Record (9/14/01)

Dennis Decker - "As soon as we looked up, we saw a midsized jet flying low and fast," Decker said. "It appeared to make a loop or part of a circle, and then it turned fast and headed out." Decker and Chaney described the plane as a Lear-jet type, with engines mounted near the tail and painted white with no identifying markings. -The Bergen Record (9/14/01)

Robin Doppstadt - was working inside her family food-and-supply store when she heard the crash. When she went outside, she said, she saw a small white jet that looked like it was making a single circle over the crash site.

"Then it climbed very quickly and took off. " -The Bergen Record (9/14/01)

Susan Mcelwain, 51 - who lives two miles from the site, knows what she saw - the white plane rocketed directly over her head.

"It came right over me, I reckon just 40 or 50ft above my mini-van," she recalled. "It was so low I ducked instinctively. It was traveling real fast, but hardly made any sound.

"Then it disappeared behind some trees. A few seconds later I heard this great explosion and saw this fireball rise up over the trees, so I figured the jet had crashed. The ground really shook. So I dialed 911 and told them what happened.

"I'd heard nothing about the other attacks and it was only when I got home and saw the TV that I realized it wasn't the white jet, but Flight 93.

I didn't think much more about it until the authorities started to say there had been no other plane. The plane I saw was heading right to the point where Flight 93 crashed and must have been there at the very moment it came down.

"There's no way I imagined this plane - it was so low it was virtually on top of me. It was white with no markings but it was definitely military, it just had that look.

"It had two rear engines, a big fin on the back like a spoiler on the back of a car and with two upright fins at the side. I haven't found one like it on the internet. It definitely wasn't one of those executive jets. The FBI came and talked to me and said there was no plane around.

"Then they changed their story and tried to say it was a plane taking pictures of the crash 3,000ft up.

"But I saw it and it was there before the crash and it was 40ft above my head. They did not want my story - nobody here did."

Mrs Mcelwain, who looks after special needs children, is further convinced the whole truth has yet to come out because of a phone call she had within hours from the wife of an air force friend of the family.

"She said her husband had called her that morning and said 'I can't talk, but we've just shot a plane down,' " Susan said. "I presumed they meant Flight 93. I have no doubt those brave people on board tried to do something, but I don't believe what happened on the plane brought it down.

"If they shot it down, or something else happened, everyone, especially the victims' families, have a right to know." -Daily Mirror (9/13/02)

More - Susan Mcelwain of Stonycreek Township said a small white jet with rear engines and no discernible markings swooped low over her minivan near an intersection and disappeared over a hilltop, nearly clipping the tops of trees lining the ridge.

It was less than a minute later, Mcelwain said, that the ground shook and a white plume of smoke appeared over the ridge. "It was so close to me I ducked," Mcelwain said. "I heard it hit and saw the smoke. All I could think of was how close I came to dying. " -The Bergen Record (9/14/01)

Lee Purbaugh, 32 - was the only person to see the last seconds of Flight 93 as it came down on former strip-mining land at precisely 10.06am - and he also saw the white jet.

He was working at the Rollock Inc. scrap yard on a ridge overlooking the point of impact, less than half a mile away. "I heard this real loud noise coming over my head," he told the Daily Mirror. "I looked up and it was Flight 93, barely 50ft above me. It was coming down in a 45 degree and rocking from side to side. Then the nose suddenly dipped and it just crashed into the ground. There was this big fireball and then a huge cloud of smoke."

But did he see another plane? "Yes, there was another plane," Lee said. "I didn't get a good look but it was white and it circled the area about twice and then it flew off over the horizon." -Daily Mirror (9/13/02)

Tom Spinelli, 28 - was working at India Lake Marina, a mile and a half away. "I saw the white plane," he said.

"It was flying around all over the place like it was looking for something. I saw it before and after the crash."

India Lake also contributes to the view there was an explosion on board before the Newark-San Francisco flight came down. Debris rained down on the lake - a curious feat if, as the US government insists, there was no mid-air explosion and the plane was intact until it hit the ground.

"It was mainly mail, bits of in-flight magazine and scraps of seat cloth," Tom said. "The authorities say it was blown here by the wind." But there was only a 10mph breeze and you were a mile and a half away? Tom raised his eyebrows, rolled his eyes and said: "Yeah, that's what they reckon." -Daily Mirror (9/13/02)

More - Another Somerset County resident, Tom Spinello, said that he saw the plane. He said that it had high back wings. -The Pittsburgh Channel (9/12/01)


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all those things have been explained and disproven. The jet, the debris field, all that. So they don't really change anything. Given all that and given the knowledge of what was going on onboard at the time of the crash, I have no problem accepting that as what happened. There is no smoking gun that offers enough evidence to sway those who aren't easily swayed or looking to remove accountability from those who were responsible for what happened.

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Those things may have been given an explaination.

However, with all the evidence together, there's other more reasonable explainations.

For instance. You believe that a 10 mph wind is going to blow debris into a field 8 miles away and that all the debris will collect itself at three points alone and not be scattered throughout the whole area?

Come on Chillz.

You believe that a 3 minute gap at the end of the tape (a tape which did not capture the actual crash of the plane) means NOTHING and that there's a reasonable explaination that has not been explained yet?

Come on Chillz.

Logically, it makes sense that we would shoot down a plane that was headed for the White House. Do you disagree? Especially after the towers were assualted and there was an assualt on the Pentagon.

This White House doesn't hold the record for being the most honest or fourthright White House. A few years ago.. What did we learn about WMDs? We had that discussion.

But if United 93 was shot down, it would fit the evidence a whole lot better than all of these coincidental explainations.

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Click here.

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Authorities weren't ready yesterday to pronounce the crash a result of terrorism. But a telling detail came minutes before the plane went down when dispatchers at the Westmoreland County Emergency Operations Center intercepted a frantic cell phone call made to 911 by a passenger aboard the doomed flight.

"We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!" the man told dispatchers in a quivering voice during a conversation that lasted about one minute.

"We got the call about 9:58 this morning from a male passenger stating that he was locked in the bathroom of United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to San Francisco, and they were being hijacked," said Glenn Cramer, a 911 supervisor.

"We confirmed that with him several times and we asked him to repeat what he said. He was very distraught.
He said he believeD the plane was going down. He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where.

"And then we lost contact with him."


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The debris blew just over 1 mile, not 8 miles. That's just another fabrication of the conspiracy theorists. Considering that we're talking about nylon and paper in a 10 mph wind, yes, i believe it.

The gap is odd. But there are other explanations for it as well.

Your use of "this whitehouse" shows why you find it to be such a big deal. You want to point fingers. As if the former whitehouse and its administration was any more forthcoming about things.

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the account doesn't make sense. He's locked in the bathroom, but he saw smoke and heard a boom? Never seen a commercial jetliner with a window in the bathroom... 1 + 1 doesn't = 2. Further more, the writer mentions a 5 mile stretch of debris. Though further down one of the eye witnesses and first people on the scene (a civilian on a 4-wheeler) makes no mention of any such oddity, no mention of a smoking jetliner on its way down and no mention of a gaping hole in the side of the plane spewing debris along its flight path.

Again, while the descrepency between the offical crash time and the other reported time is odd. That alone means little. The more I read various accounts by people on the ground and others who were involved , it seems even less likely that the plane was shot down.

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