Tonight's win inexcusable...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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"Usually" "fatal flaws" aren't conditional.

"Usually" a team that tanks is an awful team with no talent or over-the-hill talent who owns the rights to and has no conditions on their pick and who has ownership who will spend to improve. We're not that bad of a team, our talent isn't over-the-hill, we don't own our own pick unless it's top 3, and our ownership situation is the worst in professional sports. There is nothing "usual" about our situation as if what usually happens means jack. Teams don't "usually" have their best player injured and win the draft lottery, but I guess SA should have given the GD pick away or "traded everybody" because it wasn't "usual" how they came about it. Get real.

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As "usual", you don't get it. Your entire argument on this, is based on the prospect of getting Oden. Without Oden, your entire plan of action puts this team in more harm, than good.

LOL . . you're the same guy that tried to sell this board on the advantages of acquiring Saer Sene over Shelden Williams.

But say we don't get Oden, but obtain one of the top 3 picks.

If we get Durant, we either have to trade one of the current kids we have now, or possibly even trade Durant to get something that we need. It would be counter-productive to either Chill/Marvin/or Shelden, to then add Durant to the squad. One or two of those guys would have to go, for Durant to have an immeadiate impact off the bench, or as a starter.

If we get Noah, we could keep him. But he may or may not can play center in the NBA. He's a PF by nature, just like Shelden is. ( 6 - 11 . . 230 . . which is essentially the same size as Solomon Jones . . 6 - 10 . . 230 ). It's conceivable that ZaZa would still start over Noah next year, with Noah coming off the bench as a light center, much like Solomon is now.

So the only way this works out to our best advantage, is if Oden were GUARANTEED TO US.

And you said it yourself, we're not "that bad" of a team. And you already know that we're at least a top 10 team in the East, when healthy.

So the ONLY way we're a top 3 pick in this draft, is if 1) people still keep getting hurt . . 2) we don't make the playoffs but somehow get lucky wiht the ping-pong balls . . or 3) the GM completely shuts one or more of our key players down ( JJ, Smoove, Chill, etc ), citing some injury . . which would cause some suspicion about whether we're keeping these guys out on purpose, to obtain that top pick.

The fact is that this team, if they can get healthy, could very well make a run to put themselves in a position to make the playoffs THIS YEAR. And even if they don't make it, they could set themselves up for next year to be a really good team.

While you use the San Antonio example of 1997, I'll use the Orlando of 2005 - 06 example, as what can happen when a young team comes together at the end of a season.

**************

January 22nd 2006 . . the Magic were a 18 - 22 ballclub. Then, the bottom fell out of their season. An injury to Jameer Nelson, which didn't seem like a big deal at first, turned out to be the killer for the Magic's season.

They had won 3 games after his initial injury but ended up losing 11 of their next 12 games, which led to the trading of Steve Francis.

They were 19 - 33 at that point, so maybe they were doing just what you suggest the Hawks do this season, and "tanking", by dealing their "best" player in Francis.

They deal Francis, and they still lose 4 of their next 5 games.

Jameer comes back, and they lose the first 3 games that he plays.

In all, the Magic went from a team 4 games from .500 ( 18 - 22 ), to a team that freefell all the way to a 20 - 40 ballclub within a 6 week span. That's losing 18 out of 20 games.

If you were the Magic GM, you'd probably root for that team to "tank" the rest of the season, get a top 3 pick that would land you a Tyus Thomas or a LaMarcus Aldridge to play alongside D-Howard. Or even get a Brandon Roy to put in the backcourt with Nelson.

Just don't win any games, or at the very least, don't get out of that top 3.

So what do the Magic do?

They KEEP FIGHTING.

They say "we're not this bad of a team, and we're going to prove it."

That team then wins 16 of their next 20 games and put themselves in position to obtain an outside playoff spot. There is jubilation in Orlando because they saw a team that looked dead in the water with Francis, to a team that scraps and claws in every game under Nelson and Howard. The fans completely fall in love with that team. Even if the playoffs were an outside shot, they're enjoying how hard this team is playing now.

They finish the year 36 - 46 . . miss out on the playoffs . . and miss out on obtaining a top flight player in the draft.

But they build something more important than picking up a top draft pick. THEY BUILD TEAM CHEMISTRY

So what does that team do in 06 - 07?

They start the season by winning 15 of their first 19 games. And this time, when the injuries start to hit ( Turkoglu, Nelson ( for a few games ), and Hill ( for a few games ), they're able to survive and overcome their absence.

So that Magic team, that should've "tanked", by your estimation . . is now sitting at 22 - 15 and is the current #2 seed in the Eastern Conference.

Now THAT'S how you build a damn winner. You play with the talent you have, tweak it, and develop the type of team chemistry that leads to victories.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's no doubt that Oden was a force in the middle in that game . . at least in the first half.He was outstanding . . 16 points and 10 rebounds.2nd half, the Vols adjusted to him and held him to 8 points and 5 rebounds.UT is a trapping/running team that likes to shoot 3s. Their young post players don't usually put up great numbers anyway. But Oden's presence definitely made them more perimeter-oriented.Oden will definitely be able to defend on the next level. But from what I've seen of him this year. A guy with a big body can definitely limit what he does offensively, and on the boards.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Quit being a silly little straw-man maker. Why use "essentially" unless you aren't going to tell it straight. I'm suggesting telling these players no such thing. I'm telling them, "Play great, play hard, give it your best. We are making decisions that could negatively affect this season's prospects in hopes of acquiring you guys the important star level post presence talented wing-players and prospects like yourselves need and deserve. Too long have you been asked to play without a true and potentially dominant center. That is our error and we intend to rectify it.None of our long-term desires relating to you change. In fact, should we acquire this dynamic post player in the top 3 of this year's draft we will NOT have to attempt to acquire one in other ways which likely would have meant a trade of one of you. We are choosing this course in part to reinforce our commitment to you as a unit. That is precisely why we want you to play to your best ability individually and as a team, develop together, and proceed optimism. We cannot promise that the decisions we make in the short-term will make all or any of you very happy. We do not expect competitors to be happy about this. We do expect you to be professional and open minded to our direction. Address us with your concerns. Realize it is because of your potential as a unit, and yet your need for help in the post to reach contention, that we made the decision to (trade Lue for example)..."Did I say "essentially" anything in that. No. I said it. The "fatal flaw" in any other "theory" is the odds are even FAR worse. You play the odds or get played.W

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LOL @ this BS. You'd make a pretty good politician. Maybe you should run for Congress.LMAO @ "address us with your concerns".*****Chill - "dangit BK, I'm tired of busting my butt for 3 quarters, only for you to "give the signal" for me to start messing up at the end. This isn't cool at all."BK - "Chill . . chill. Understand that we're doing this, so that we can have a "shot" to get Oden. It may only be a 25% shot, but it's a shot that we need to take. And look at it this way. It'll make us better as a team, even if you guys aren't developing the type of chemistry with each other that you should right now. If we get Oden, we won't have to trade you or Marvin, to get a big man. We'll trade Shelden or ZaZa, to make sure you guys get to play more. Now get out of my office, and do your dang job."Chill - "yes sir." ( head down )*********Then, when the Hawks fail to get that #1 spot, but take Durant, Chill AND Smoove tell people "off the record" that they're tired of losing, and want to be traded from the Hawks . . . ala Al Harrington. They also say that they're definitely not signing extensinos when their contracts are up. Hawks panic, and trade both Smoove and Chill for veteran expiring contracts, seeing that they're not competitive right now.Then JJ demands to be traded, and the ish hits the fan. Reconstruction all over again.

[DJ_Money]

This topic is a clear example of how this board has gone to hell.

[Diesel]

The tankers have BAD odds on their sides...Plus they have history working against them.It's not possible to make your team losers and then expect them to do anything next year or years to come. Couple that with your bad odds and it's a dumb idea.

[Diesel]

Hey Walter...You live in NC. Do you play the lottery everyday. I don't mean a dollar here a dollar there... I'm talking about sinking your whole check into the lottery... because the more you play, the better your odds...I've noticed that you've taken to preaching this philosphy of the Hawks having to live on the odds... but the question is do you?Do you play Lotto everyday.I have a friend named Woody. He plays lotto everyday. His belief is that If I win, I make up for all the losing that I have done.That's your belief with the Hawks right?You believe that if the Hawks can win the lottery, that all the sudden, all the losing disappears...I wonder why that never worked for Woody? I mean, Woody lose his wife, children, and job hoping that if he wins, he can make all that change.I wonder why that never worked for the LA Clippers. They tanked every season starting around Feb. For almost 20 years, they were in the top 5 of the lottery. They believed that ______________ would be their savior... But then had to wonder what happened to the rest of their team with ________.It wasn't until they finally started to realize that you don't win by getting rookies every year. You win by trading for established talent or picking up vet FAs like Cassell and Mobley and building continuity.You think continuity is something that happens in the front office??Next time you stop off at that one shell station in Asheville and you see those lottery tickets... Remember this conversation when you walk away with your dollar in your pocket and ask yourself... IF I REALLY BELIEVE IN THE ODDS, WHY DIDN'T I BUY A GANG OF TICKETS... REMEMBER WOODY.

[AtLaS]

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You have to take these gimme losses when you can. There will be other nights when it's hard to lose (like playing Charlotte in back-to-back at the end of the month). Those nights, we'll wish we had lost this game. Detroit is a good team, and we had every opportunity to lose.BTW, I don't get the "this was a big win" talk. The only thing it did for us is blow a chance to make-up/gain ground as both Philly and Charlotte won. How many times will they both win on the same night?What this means is the back-to-back against Charlotte in 2 weeks is critical. We need to get swept, but a split would be acceptable. Going 2-0 would be a terrible blow.

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what a pathetic post. I agree I would like to get Oden too, but what are you going to tell the players? Just lay down and not play? Don't try to improve? Or are you just going to tell the players "hey guys, we're going to go all out, but if we are ahead in the end we have to blow the lead." You CAN'T tell players that, it just can't happen. If anything we should play the young guys (i.e. Solomon and Shelden) a lot of minutes and if that results in losing a lot of games, then so be it. You can NEVER actually tell the team to tank, thats just rediculous.

[AHF]

The lotto is not a good comparison to the lottery because the odds are so dramatically different. If the odds were similar and you had twenty neighbors on your block, you would have 25% of the neighborhood as millionaires within 5 years if they invested in the lottery. The result of winning the lotto and the NBA lottery is also not comparable since the result is much more certain with the lotto (unlike Kandi, Kenyon Martin, etc.)

[Diesel]

By that same token, the price to get in is dramatically different too.In your scenerio...If it cost you your salary for a year...would you give it up for a 25% chance to win the millionaire lottery in your neighborhood.

[Guest Walter]

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"Usually" a team that tanks is an awful team with no talent or over-the-hill talent who owns the rights to and has no conditions on their pick and who has ownership who will spend to improve. We're not that bad of a team, our talent isn't over-the-hill, we don't own our own pick unless it's top 3, and our ownership situation is the worst in professional sports. There is nothing "usual" about our situation as if what usually happens means jack. Teams don't "usually" have their best player injured and win the draft lottery, but I guess SA should have given the GD pick away or "traded everybody" because it wasn't "usual" how they came about it. Get real.

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As "usual", you don't get it. Your entire argument on this, is based on the prospect of getting Oden. Without Oden, your entire plan of action puts this team in more harm, than good.

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Interestingly you quote me a whole paragraph in which Oden is not mentioned once but top 3 is, then you condemn my argument because it's "solely based upon the prospect of Oden". Next you choose a red-herring and character assassination. I think I've had enough of you. Go home and get an argument.

W

[Guest Walter]

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In your scenerio...

If it cost you your salary for a year...

would you give it up for a 25% chance to win the millionaire lottery in your neighborhood.

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D@mn straight I would and you'd be a GD fool not to!!! Of course, we have 60% chance of winning say at least 500,000 as well. I'll take that too! I make pretty good $$$ so it's not like I represent a team without ANY talent. I'd be giving up a decent bit fover a year or that 25% shot at a million. BUT I'D D@MN SURE DO IT!!! Only a fool or someone who made more than $250,000 a year wouldn't take those odds.

Are you a fool? It's lookin' that way.

W

[CBAreject]

I'm glad the Magic ALREADY have their dominant big. We could've had him (or Okafor) if we'd just freaking tanked, but noooooooooooooo....we want something to build on (but not a franchise big to build with).Yes, the Magic must feel good about themselves. At 20-40, they were too good to tank and the draft was the worst in some years. They already had a franchise big, and a franchise PG. They didn't need to tank. They were good as it was.We won't challenge the Magic until we get an all-star big. Hoping for 36 wins this year is foolish and disloyal to the team. We're screwed long-term, but these lucky injuries have put us in a situation to rectify it. Let's capitalize and tank our fuggin asses off. All it takes is winning one 50/50 or so (and that's so much better than whatever you're hoping for).

[BusBoyIsBack]

Glad to know some of our fans think like this. Tossing the season away before the halfway mark only 4 games out of the playoffs.Unbelievable.We finally got healthy for the season and we're 2-0 because of it.You can say it's because we didn't play a real team, well guess what? This whole month is relatively friendly with beatable teams.We could easily get on a roll and narrow the gap out of the 8th seed to 1-2 games or maybe even break even.Having such a loser mentality is ridiculous.I'd see if we were hopelessly out of the playoffs.That's clearly not the case.

[Lascar78]

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Having such a loser mentality is ridiculous.I'd see if we were hopelessly out of the playoffs.That's clearly not the case.

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Agreed. Especially when you're screwed if you're not top 3. Hell at least we're a little closer to half way. Some have been wanting to give up on the season since mid december.

[CBAreject]

Ha. This thread is classic. It's interesting that we actually did get a top 3 pick, and we actually did get our franchise center out of the draft that year. Here we are 8 years later with that center being the only remnant from the following season's team, and here we are with a lock on the #1 seed.

I'm not the least bit sorry for wishing that on us back then.

[AUhawksfan]

I love seeing old user names like "SmooveTheFuture"

Gives me a good chuckle.