Convince me Horford can be our CENTER!

[Admin]

I have to ask that because NOBODY who actually watches this team would call that statement about Smoove being a poor positional defender dumb. Smoove is a great defensive player, he is super exciting, and he blocks a lot of shots and yes he does have to help a lot. However, he can be backed down quite easily and he goes for pump fakes as much as anyone I have ever seen. That's why he gets in foul trouble so often, which then leads to him getting pissed off and the occasional technical foul.

[sturt]

Ex, "resemble" wasn't taken to mean stats, but rather to mean physically resemble...

Sometimes I wonder if you ever even pause to think about whether there is a reasonable explanation for why another person thinks differently than you do about X...

(The bullying act really isn't necessary, brother. You seem able to get your ideas across without the pontificating thing, so try to lighten up.)

[exodus]

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statement about Smoove being a poor positional defender dumb.

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Maybe you should read your own quote again because you don't even seem to know what you said.

[exodus]

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Ex, "resemble" wasn't taken to mean stats, but rather to mean physically resemble...

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I am the exact same size as Law so i guess i could start as the Hawks pg. You are picking the exceptions to the rule. First you have to pick only 2 out of 30 starting centers. And it just so happens that they are freaks of nature. Ben is a 4 time DPOY winner and Amare made 1st team All-NBA.Do you really think those are realistic comparisons?

[AtLaS]

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And having seen him play.I"m no expert on him, but doesn't having a 2 inch shorter standing reach than the NEXT shortest starting C put you at a huge disadvantage?

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No, standing reach helps with BLOCKS and nothing else. Blocks do not equal good defense. I'd rather someone play good positional defense rather than get an extra block per game.Shelden is a great rebounder and he has almost no athleticism, is 6'8", and has an 8'8" standing reach. But keep listening to exodus..

[sturt]

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Ex, "resemble" wasn't taken to mean stats, but rather to mean physically resemble...

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I am the exact same size as Law so i guess i could start as the Hawks pg.

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Do you really think that's representative of the extent of the logic in saying Horford physically resembles Player X?

At least respect the opposing argument enough that you avoid being specious.

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You are picking the exceptions to the rule. First you have to pick only 2 out of 30 starting centers. And it just so happens that they are freaks of nature. Ben is a 4 time DPOY winner and Amare made 1st team All-NBA.

Do you really think those are realistic comparisons?

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It actually isn't all that uncommon in NBA history, even, to have 6-9-or-thereabouts centers.

Again... not optimal... but also not a factor that damns a team to lottery hell.

It's premature to say whether Horford will reach his potential. Draft hype is often inaccurate. But by almost all accounts by outside observers, Horford can be special.

[exodus]

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But by almost all accounts by outside observers, Horford can be special.

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What you have to realize is that, if he becomes an average starting 4, that IS special. That means only 15 pfs are as good as or better than him. Considering how many players are drafted each year that is an elite group. But when you start talking about comparing him to 1st team All-NBA players or 4 time DPOY winners you lose me.

[AtLaS]

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But when you start talking about comparing him to 1st team All-NBA players or 4 time DPOY winners you lose me.

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... but being picked at #3 it is definitely reasonable to expect him to be better than average. The PF position is the most stacked of any position in the NBA, and an average PF is still a great player. I expect him to be better than "average," but you don't. I'll be sure to bump this in the future.

[DavidSomerset]

You're going to tell me getting a hand in the face doesn't drastically alter FG%?

[sturt]

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But by almost all accounts by outside observers, Horford can be special.

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What you have to realize is that, if he becomes an average starting 4, that IS special. That means only 15 pfs are as good as or better than him. Considering how many players are drafted each year that is an elite group.

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If that's the definition you want to use, then that's your choice... but I think the word carried more meaning than that when I heard it uttered or written... just my opinion, but I don't think I was reading too much into it.

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But when you start talking about comparing him to 1st team All-NBA players or 4 time DPOY winners you lose me.

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I don't believe you're lost at all... I believe that's a convenient comeback, albeit a somewhat curious one...

The question is whether a player of Horford's size can be successful at the 5 position, is it not?

The answer that we ought to both be able to agree on: Yes, it is possible, but it is not common.

Surely that's not too hard to sign-off on.

Here's the follow-up, though, one should think about...

How many teams start centers who are in that 6-9 range to begin with?

Not many.

So, the ratio (...about 2 starters, and of those 2, both of whom are, to some degree, "stars" in the league...) gives reason to explore whether the size factor is over-rated... in other words, if you had half of the teams' coaches were less focused on height and more on talent at the 5, would those teams ordinarily fare better than those who made it an imperative that their 5 be at least 6-11?

'Twould be an interesting experiment.

[AtLaS]

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You're going to tell me getting a hand in the face doesn't drastically alter FG%?

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The tallest center in the NBA is 7'6". Horford's standing reach is 8'11". I'd say his hand is in his face.

[exodus]

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The question is whether a player of Horford's size can be successful at the 5 position, is it not?The answer that we ought to both be able to agree on: Yes, it is possible, but it is not common.Surely that's not too hard to sign-off on.

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Exactly, however i feel your definition of uncommon is probably different from mine.

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How many teams start centers who are in that 6-9 range to begin with?Not many.

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And what does that tell you?There are a lot more guys Horfords size than there are guysmuch bigger so if going small at center was the way to go a lot more teams would be doing it. The reality is that going undersized at C only works in very exceptional circumstances. I don't think it is a coincidence that the most dominant team of the last few years prefers to have a big center playing next to Duncan. Oberto is probably the smallest player that Duncan has ever started next to. The more common scenario is that a team puts a pf at C and quickly abandons it when they realize it doesn't work. Like two seasons ago when Bosh started at C and they had the worst defense in the league.

[AHF]

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It actually isn't all that uncommon in NBA history, even, to have 6-9-or-thereabouts centers.Again... not optimal... but also not a factor that damns a team to lottery hell.

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Here are a couple:Dave Cowens 6'9''Billy Cunningham 6'6''Dan Issel 6'9''Neil Johnston 6'8''Clyde Lovellette 6'9''Moses Malone 6'10''Wes Unseld 6'7''Willis Reed 6'9''Bill Russell 6'9''(Some of the HOFers who fit this category).

[exodus]

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I would challenge you (or anyone) to find more than a few players with anywhere near Horfords talent level in the NBA with more strength and stamina than him

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We have one on our own team in Shelden. Then there is Okafor. Even some small forwards have beaten 20 reps (Joey Graham).

[exodus]

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just because Amare plays a poor defensive C at 6'10 240 or whatever he is doesn't mean that all natural PFs who are his size will be the same.

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There are more guys 6'9" to 6'10" than there are guys bigger than that. So obviously if playing an undersized C was the right way to go then a lot more teams would be doing it.

[Admin]

You're right. I actually said that Smoove was the best positional defender on the team. How could I have been so confused between 2 posts in a matter of minutes? {/sarcasm}You seem to believe that there is a difference (at least worth debating on your part) between saying "Smoove who is maybe the worst positional defender on our team" and "Smoove being a poor positional defender" when they both refer to him the same way ... The bottom line is that Smoove is NOT a good positional defender (uh oh different wording again) From now on I will try to make it a point to use the exact same verbiage when describing a player so that you don't get confused as easily.

[Admin]

Were you one of the guys saying "So obviously if playing ________ was the right way to go then a lot more teams would be doing it" when BK talked about having a versatile roster consisting of 6'8 - 6'9 forwards? Now you are seeing more teams going towards doing that. It's almost like BK is being imitated because people see that the game is moving that direction. Maybe he is onto something with wanting to use Horford and SW at C.

[Vafan]

Horford is an excellent prospect as a PF. But only an average prospect as a C. He is not even 6'9 and his standing reach is not above average. For all the people who say that he is 6'10, that is baloney. No one measures height with shoes on. There is this saying "You can't teach height."

[AtLaS]

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I would challenge you (or anyone) to find more than a few players with anywhere near Horfords talent level in the NBA with more strength and stamina than him

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We have one on our own team in Shelden. Then there is Okafor. Even some small forwards have beaten 20 reps (Joey Graham).

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[image]http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/big12/sports/m-baskbl/auto_action/156035.jpeg[/image] What a horrible argument. I would EXPECT this guy to bench 20 reps.

[exodus]

First of all saying that Smith may be the worst positional defender on the team is flat out dumb. No way around that. Secondly saying he is a poor positional defender at the 4 is wrong. The main thing he needs to do better is make his man work hard for position initially. If you want to make that argument when Smith plays the 3 you have a better case. Smith isn't quick enough to keep up with many 3s. Try finding a few starting 4s who scored well above their average against Smith when Smith was the starting 4. And keep in mind that when Smith got beat he didn't have much help behind him.