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Article on Socialized Medicine


KB21

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Democracy.. isn't found in the constitution, but it is found in the Spirit of the constitution was understood that way...

When Lincoln said

"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"

In the Gettysburg address, I think that his translation of what went on those 4 score and 7 years previous was about democracy.

I agree with you that we really haven't tasted true democracy.. because we have a republic..or a represented form of democracy. I think we are now to the place where we can get rid of the republic (represented) and let each man decide for himself what this nation will be. Seriously Eddie, how would you feel if you found out that the guy you elected voted for something you didn't want and he did it just to please his "party". This cronyism and party loyalty is killing our society. Nothing gets done because nobody is really voting the will of the majority of the people. It's not enough to give the power back to states, I would rather see the power come all the way back to the people. Technology almost has us to the place where having representatives will be of no use any longer. When we have a true direct democracy, then I think we will truly live out that legacy that Lincoln talked about.

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I don't know what world you're living in....

I have done this before. The Insurance company doesn't cover the whole doctor bill and the patient has to pay the rest. The Doctor gets what he bills the patient for...

You must be in Switzerland or something.

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I respectfully disagree. Democracy is a terrible form of government. We are a government of law, not of man...and for everybody's sake, we better hope it stays that way. Do you really want to live in a society where we are governed based on the fickle public. Dude it would be absolute chaos. In a true democracy, a mob could show up at your doorstep accusing you of anything and just have their way with you. After all, if it's the will of the majority, that's the way it has to be right? It's a common trait, and I'm not saying you are a leftist, of left-wing ideology to think more using emotion than with reason. Democracy sounds so nice and open-minded until you apply pragmatism to it and it just crumbles into a million pieces.

We can replace those in office at the ballot box if the people really want to. This is where we have a democratic process. Only when it comes to electing most representatives. That's why the Dems are in power right now. The republicans abandoned their base and they paid the price, as they should have.

We do need a viable third party to arise. I like the libertarian party in a lot of ways but disagree with them on a few major issues. I'm basically a man w/out a party. But I cannot disagree with you more about letting the will of the public be our governing body. Hell no, that is just crazy and I don't believe that is what Lincoln meant. I think he meant respecting the individuals that constitute this union should guide our progress but not that they should be the law-making body.

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Quote:


Do you really want to live in a society where we are governed based on the fickle public.


In the end, it's the people who should be responsible for what happens to them and not some party or some lobby. To put the will of the people into the hands of one man who can be swayed by parties and lobbies... is stupid. We are running a corrupt form of government.

Your statement suggests to me that you would be open to a dictatorship. I'm not.

Moreover, your idea that having another party will change things is naive to me. Even if the Green Party, the Brown Party, the Libertarian Party and the Constitutional party were all on keep with the Democrats and the Republicans, it would not stop the mismanagement of Government. What you're saying is that people are not smart enough to do what's best for themselves. I don't think that's the case. Moreover, you get rid of big business' control of the government when you introduce true democracy. Yes, there should still be Senators and a President and a Supreme Court... but it's purpose is to be a Law making and head of state positions. I would equate it to the German Democratic Republic. However, I would give the power to vote to the people... Referendums would be given to the people quarterly and votes would be made quarterly.

Corruption will leave the US when the lobbies are banned.

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First off, I despise the k street lobbyists as much as you do. I also get discouraged when elected politicians sell out to the party name and don't follow through on the platform that they campaigned on that got them into office. It is disgusting to me when politicians get caught up in the political game so much that their only agenda becomes getting re-elected. There is corruption in our government and their always will be some element of it, even in a true democracy Diesel. WE're human. People will always try to manipulate politicians to get legislation in their favor. Decreasing the power of unions would be a good start to ending this as well as dis-empowering the lobbyists.

But that's why it's so important to educate people as to how this country became the most powerful nation in the world and to encourage them to become more involved in how this country is being run. How many of the masses that you are so in love with really understand what they are voting for? Take a poll at each booth next election and ask simple question like who are your state senators? Who is your congressman/woman? You might be shocked to find out that a lot of them don't even know. So many of them just vote for the politician who promises them more welfare programs. If that sounds like I am in favor of a dictatorship, you are flat out wrong. It is reality. I have a lot of faith in the people of this country but let's face it, too many people vote for handouts and the politicans take full advantage of that....mostly democratic voters. It's called buying votes.

Here's an idea. Let's make voting harder for people to do. Let's make it mandatory for people to actually pass some test that shows they have an inkling of an idea as to how this government is set up to run. Let's require more identification so illegal aliens cannot vote. Let's increase the integrity of our elections.

Here's another radical idea. Give those that pay more taxes more of a sayso in how the country is run. Let the high achievers have more power than the leeches by letting their vote count for more than just one vote. It only makes sense due to the fact that they fund most of the government anyway. You can say my ideas are stupid and naive. That doesn't help this debate. I'll just once more say I respectfully disagree with you.

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I don't want to get too involved, but as someone who has lived in France, Canada, and the US, I find it ridiculous that the richest country in the history of the galaxy can't provide free healthcare to its citizens. The downfalls of socialized medicine are vastly overblown in the US (no relative of mine has ever had any significant problem, and almost all of them live in France and England with a few in Canada), and particularly when compared to the thousands who die yearly in the US because they couldn't afford insurance.

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I know you said you don't want to get too involved but I just had to respond to a few of your points.

"Free healthcare?" Are you serious? It's just free? Nobody has to pay for it? No offense but that's a completely uninformed statement to make. The rich will pay for it in the form of taxes. What tax rate do people who want to keep taxing the rich think is too much? Where does it stop? 75% of their income be enough for you? Free...geesh!

As for the downfalls being overblown, there are PLENTY of testimonials to support that people living in those countries routinely come to this country for it's healthcare when the waiting list for certain procedures is months or years compared to hours or days here. How many of the people who don't have healthcare here that die because of health issues did NOTHING to take care of themselves? How many of them had cell phones and televisions and cars? There's just too many holes in your argument.

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I had a patient today that walked to the clinic from the Salvation Army and was not turned away, knowing full well that he cannot pay. Don't give me any crap about letting poor people die. I have never seen a single patient that cannot pay turned away for anything except an elective surgery.

I refuse to practice medicine in a setting where the government is controlling the health care system or where the system is totally socialized. I'm not alone in that view. If this country ever goes to a socialized health care system, you will see a tremendous shortage of doctors, a lower number of applicants for medical school, and probably several medical schools closing their doors.

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Since you're acting childishly, I'll play along and say no, they should force taxpayers at the point of a gun with death to turn over their services because you think everyone has a god given right to health care no matter what. What a world! Just do what you want and the government will take care of you. There are always suckers who will work and take care of those who choose not to with their taxes. Don't worry, they have to or we'll arrest them, or shoot them if they resist.

Come on dude, you can respond to me on a little more of a mature level than that please. If my opinion puts you in such a pissy little mindset, then stay completely out of the debate.

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Quote:


Here's an idea. Let's make voting harder for people to do. Let's make it mandatory for people to actually pass some test that shows they have an inkling of an idea as to how this government is set up to run. Let's require more identification so illegal aliens cannot vote. Let's increase the integrity of our elections.

Here's another radical idea. Give those that pay more taxes more of a sayso in how the country is run. Let the high achievers have more power than the leeches by letting their vote count for more than just one vote.


This is the problem because this is what so many people believe from the talking heads... Rush included.

You can't assume that people don't know what's best for them. The problem with the two party system is that both parties believe that they can best tell the people what's best for the people. Politicians live on capital for years and years and never really do the will of the people. NO. They do the will of the party. That's neither Democracy or a Republic or a Represented Democracy.

The second problem is you assume since people Pay more they should make the rules??! Isn't that what we have now?? Bush is the rich person's president. Just for a moment, imagine if Bill Gates ran the Nation. There are some things that Bill does that I could agree with. However, Bill doesn't speak for me in everything he does. Why would I continue to want the rich to run this nation.

NO... I think it should be each person gets a vote. That's how your vote could really mean something. If somebody could capture your heart with their ideas.. Good for them.

However, voter turnout is down for several reason, but not because people are idiots. I would said first and foremost because most people have lost confidence in the electoral college. The fix is in is the word of the day.

Finally I agree. Build a wall... Employ some of those unemployed to do it. Make it good and strong... Then give every taxpaying American a National ID... Then set up systems to recognize if somebody is a taxpayer or not. IF not, they get no benefits. Also, start working on ending the H1 Visas...I think we have to worry more about terrorism from H1 Visas than we do Visitors from the south... Moreover, if you work here & earn money here, you pay taxes here.

So no, I don't say you're ideas are stupid. Your ideas are exactly what's wrong with America right now. What's wrong with America is that the very people who has been voted to represent the people has made so many of the people believe that the people are not smart enough or do put in enough to represent themselves. Technology is so now that we don't need the pony express to get a message across the nation. Why are we still running an old form of government that limits the will of the people?

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I don't know who has brainwashed you...

The rich doesn't pay the most taxes... It's the working middle class who is getting the blunt of taxes. Statistically, those who make over $500,000 per year, pay less than everybody accept those who make under $35,000 per year. That's not right. Under Bush, we have seen more Corporate Welfare and tax breaks given to the wealthy that it's a shame and a pity.

Here's your homework, go look up the Alternative Minimum Tax and comeback talking about what the rich pays! You will find out that for all the advantages the rich have, they don't have to pay for it.

You don't begin to see the level of corruption in government nor in taxation. This nation needs a fairtax with no loopholes!

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Now I'm brainwashed. Just like w/ Marvin and the hype machine.

You know for a fact what a big proponent of tax reform I am w/ our discussions on the fairtax. You just keep falling into that class envy state of mind that you have been maybe brainwashed into. Please get over the fact that there will always be those who are high-achievers and those who choose less.

I will check out the site you mentioned on taxes. But if you expect me to believe that the top income earners in this country are paying less than the middle class or poor(who pay no taxes) then you are simply beyond help. Numbers don't lie. I truly believe that, even if you won't admit it Diesel, you have a serious case of class envy and that makes it hard to have a serious conversation with you on important matters like this. Even back w/ the fairtax, you always reverted to cliche statements like the rich keep getting richer and the "working class" statements. What? Everyone who is rich doesn't work or just cheated to get there? They all just inherited it? That's class envy my friend. The rich keep getting richer(which I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination by the way) because, for the most part, they keep doing what has made them rich. The poor, for the most part, stay poor because they, as well, keep making the decisions that have led them to their current state. I believe strongly in personal responsbility. This country affords everyone the opportunity to achieve greatness. There will always be the cases where people need a little help or just have bad luck, but that is the exception..not the norm.

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It's possible that you are a proponent of tax reform... I never questioned that.

I question your continual statements of how the rich pay all the taxes.

It's not true. The working middle class pays all the taxes. The rich gets off scott free.

Fortunately, our generation have seen more self made Millionaires than ever before. That's thanks in part to the economic boom that on-line businesses have created. However, your statement about the rich stay rich because they do what they have always done??? Come on man. I'm proud of anybody making over 500,000 per year. However, I know that there are lots of economic advantages that you get when you enter that bracket. First off, 31% taxes doesn't mean as much.

Clinton was the only president in the last 30 years that actually taxed those rich and ultra rich at a rate which allowed for the deficit to be cut. Bush came back to the same old trickle down repackaged. You can't expect this nation to be out of debt without killing the deficit.

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Funny how Bush's tax cuts have increased govn't revenue and the economy is doing really well. Hmm.

And I never said the rich pay ALL the taxes....just the top 1/3 of income earners in this country pay about 90% of the taxes. Sorry but that's the truth. You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts.

But it's cool. I'm used to hearing people say the things you're saying. It's all too familiar and quite sad to me.

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Economy doing really well??

The tax cuts have helped the rich...

However, pay attention to your interest rates!

When Bill Clinton took office he intentionally reversed the Supply Side formula, raising taxes on the wealthy and reducing them on the lowest wage earners. Supply Side true believers predicted the arrival of the Apocalypse. Bob Dole said the stock market would collapse. Newt Gingrich said the world would fall into another Great Depression.

What actually happened?

Between 1992 and 2000, the U.S. economy produced the longest sustained economic expansion in U.S. history. It created more than 18 million new jobs, the highest level of job creation ever recorded. Inflation fell to 2.5% per year compared to the 4.7% average over the prior 12 years.

Real interest rates fell by over 40% producing the greatest housing boom ever. Overall economic growth averaged 4.0% per year. That's amazing Eddie... and you're buying into what Bush did and you don't see what's coming?

You say under bush, the economy is growing? Well, what's the economy supposed to do after a steep fall? Bush took the economy to the largest unemployement ever seen. So now that people who once had good jobs are settling for jobs at the local Wal-Mart, you want me to believe that Bush is doing something great with the economy?? I went into a gas station the other day, there were 3 workers there.. THEY were all over 60. This was in a community with working age youth. Youths can't go to the local McDonalds and get a job anymore. That's because those jobs are no longer expendible training Jobs. They are now jobs that are peoples means for living. That's a shame. And you say that the economy is doing well?

Under Clinton Years, I bought and Sold 2 houses for profit. Right now... % rates are going up. Houses will be sold for cheap because nobody's buying.

I remember, when Clinton Left office, we were talking about what to do with the SURPLUS!!!

Now....The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1.39 billion per day since September 29, 2006! National Debt = Almost 9 trillion dollars.

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3 words...dot com boom. If I were president during that time, the enomomy would have done exactly what it did. That had NOTHING to do with Bill Clinton being president. I'm not saying Clinton didn't do some good things for the economy, just that the dot com boom was the MAIN reason for it. Plus, remember, Al Gore created the internet so Clinton can't take credit for that.

Furthermore, your individual situation doesn't represent the economy as a whole. You didn't refute the facts once again. Govn't revenue has increased since the tax cuts. The deficit is not growing by as great a margin as it has been(despite repubs spending like dems) due to more govn't revenue.

As for taxes, 98% of all income taxes are paid by the top 50% wage earners. Those evil rich create jobs for people like me. They invest more in their businesses. I don't like to see them taxed out the wazoo just because it makes people like you feel better to see their wealth re-distributed. You just have a chip on your shoulder against the upper class and you won't admit it. It makes having this discussion pointless until you can check your personal emotions. I know you're an intelligent guy even though we disagree. But please, lose the chip mann. It is WAY too obvious.

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Clinton provided an environment for investing which helped spun the dot com boom. There is a well recognized relationship between real interest rates and the unemployment rate - the higher the real rates, the higher the unemployment rate, and vice versa. However, the flip side is that the higher the rates, the lower inflation goes. Ergo, you can set interest rates anywhere you want to get the best balance between high inflation and high unemployment. However, you can't have low inflation and low unemployment at once... That is until Clinton's taxes... He lowered unemployment and inflation at the same time while cutting the deficit and getting a 230+ billion dollar surplus per year in his last three years in office.

Without having that environment that was brought about by taxing the rich, venture capitalist would have never created the boom.

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Well, Diesel is just flat out wrong on this issue. 90% of all the taxes this country collects comes from the top 10% in wealth. The people that make the most, pay the most.

As far as people needing a little help, I truly believe in helping people get back on the feet. What I am firmly against is being the person that is supporting the people who don't want to do any better.

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