Hawks begun preliminary talks for Carmelo Anthony

[lethalweapon3]

Joe is the peanut butter, Melo is the chocolate. And how did those Reese's commercials used to go?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLDF6qZUX0~lw3

[NineOhTheRino]

let's try it with pictures:

Joe =

Roomy interior

Good Gas mileage

Great for family vacations

OK acceleration

5-Star crash rating

Melo =

Sweet

Edited January 26, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[Swatguy]

I don't think Melo makes those around him better. I think he's Big Dog II. I don't see him helping us if we give up too much for him.

Denver failings: Attitudinal indifference abounds. Birdman, Kenyon, JR ect... Karl was at best in Seattle, not so in Milwaukee (with HOF's in prime) nor Denver. Playoff opponents in the west are highly competitive even in the first rounds regardless of seedings. And last season AD was completely overwhelmed as Karl rehabed. Carmelo has never shrunked in the Playoffs as Joe annually Shrinks. Carmelo is a beast.Joe, Zaza and a #1 for Carmelo and Nene`

[AHF]

Once again, the formulated stats are pointless to me.

TS% is not a formulated stat. It is a simply scoring efficiency of all shots a player takes. I don't know why you would lump it in with weighted forumlaic stats like PER and win shares.

Regardless, I never said that Carmelo was the better scorer between him and Dirk. So why is it that you keep producing ts% numbers like you're proving a point to me ?

Once we agree that Carmelo is an inferior scorer to Dirk and Durant, my point is that he doesn't bring much else to the table besides some solid rebounding and that makes it a very, very questionable argument to call him a superstar based on anything other than reputation.

It looks like to me that you value ts% and all those ridiculous stats more than sportswriters and broadcasters. Otherwise more efficient, but lesser players would have made it more than Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony.

Now you are mixing popularity and effectiveness of play. If you want to transition to an eyeball test where you are looking at how others perceive Carmelo's play and compare him to Dirk, I don't think he comes off very good in the comparison.

Beginning with the year in which Carmelo received his first MVP vote, here are the numbers for MVP voting:

Total votes:

Carmelo: 70

Dirk: 2098

Years in which Carmelo received more votes: 1

Years in which Dirk received more votes: 6

The same disparity is in the All-NBA teams:

Dirk 2nd Team/Carmelo 2nd Team

Dirk 1st Team/Carmelo 3rd Team

Dirk 2nd Team/Carmelo Not Selected

Dirk 1st Team/Carmelo 3rd Team

Dirk 1st Team/Carmelo 3rd Team

Dirk 1st Team/Carmelo Not Selected

Carmelo can't sniff Dirk's jock by this criteria either.

I will grant you that you can lump Carmelo in with Yao Ming, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, and others who received lots of votes when I believe they weren't worthy of that many votes.

So by the numbers Carmelo is a tier below Dirk who is a tier below the elite stars. By the "eyeball" test of voting and All-NBA squads, you see the same results. The guy is just not in that elite group of players. He is very good but I would worry about whether I was going to get near his perceived value if I acquired him which is why I raised the "rich man's Big Dog" concerns. He would need to take a big step forward in his play to push a team to contender status. There are plenty of worse guys to gamble making the leap in their lat 20s, but it would be a gamble.

Carmelo has never shrunked in the Playoffs as Joe annually Shrinks.

Carmelo's total playoff track record isn't that impressive but it is definitely better than Joe's, especially the last two years where Carmelo has done fairly well and Joe has had some rough games. Edited January 26, 2011 by AHF

[High5]

Melo is a superstar when he's focused, but his occasional lapses in effort and judgment would be worrisome on a team that specializes in those lapses.

[Diesel]

Carmelo has never shrunked in the Playoffs as Joe annually Shrinks. Carmelo is a beast.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKx4wp59mAshttp-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LAHJ2On-yE&feature=related

[EazyRoc]

Once we agree that Carmelo is an inferior scorer to Dirk and Durant, my point is that he doesn't bring much else to the table besides some solid rebounding and that makes it a very, very questionable argument to call him a superstar based on anything other than reputation. Now you are mixing popularity and effectiveness of play. If you want to transition to an eyeball test where you are looking at how others perceive Carmelo's play and compare him to Dirk, I don't think he comes off very good in the comparison. Beginning with the year in which Carmelo received his first MVP vote, here are the numbers for MVP voting:Total votes:Carmelo: 70Dirk: 2098Years in which Carmelo received more votes: 1Years in which Dirk received more votes: 6The same disparity is in the All-NBA teams:Dirk 2nd Team/Carmelo 2nd TeamDirk 1st Team/Carmelo 3rd TeamDirk 2nd Team/Carmelo Not SelectedDirk 1st Team/Carmelo 3rd TeamDirk 1st Team/Carmelo 3rd TeamDirk 1st Team/Carmelo Not SelectedCarmelo can't sniff Dirk's jock by this criteria either. I will grant you that you can lump Carmelo in with Yao Ming, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, and others who received lots of votes when I believe they weren't worthy of that many votes.So by the numbers Carmelo is a tier below Dirk who is a tier below the elite stars. By the "eyeball" test of voting and All-NBA squads, you see the same results. The guy is just not in that elite group of players. He is very good but I would worry about whether I was going to get near his perceived value if I acquired him which is why I raised the "rich man's Big Dog" concerns. He would need to take a big step forward in his play to push a team to contender status. There are plenty of worse guys to gamble making the leap in their lat 20s, but it would be a gamble.

Carmelo has been one of the best rebounders at his position year in and year out. His defense/decision making have improved since the Olympics. Dirk Nowitzki is an decent rebounder (let's not forget he's 7') at his position at his best. He's a poor defender who can't defend a man or protect the basket. I also can't get out of my head how Stephen Jackson manhandled him in the Mavericks loss to the Warriors. Dirk was hard to defend when he first came into the league, but he got exposed in later years. He's soft, and the only thing he's got going for him is range on his jumpshot. That's another accolade I forgot to mention. Let's face it with MVP votes, I don't think it effectively chooses the most valuable player consistently. I feel as if Dirk only won it because he was the best player on the best team, but he had a good team around him so it's really hard to say that he was the most valuable player (to his team) in the NBA. Let's also try to remember that Dirk has played 5 seasons more than Carmelo, and has past his prime. Those 5 extra seasons play a part in the reason he's been voted for more All NBA teams. Whether or not you believe Carmelo is a superstar is your own personal opinion. I share the opinion of sportswriters and broadcasters of America. The same ones who voted him for All-NBA teams. Edited January 26, 2011 by EazyRoc

[BudBall]

Hmm Like they say, what have you done for me lately.

Last memory of Joe in the playoffs is sucking!

[cwill1410]

Original Link Blog LinkOpinions?

Opinions?Everyones lookin too far into this

[capstone21]

Hmm Like they say, what have you done for me lately.

Last memory of Joe in the playoffs is sucking!

He was also hurt with a bad elbow that didn't improve until he finally had surgery. Look what he has done since

[AHF]

Carmelo has been one of the best rebounders at his position year in and year out. His defense/decision making have improved since the Olympics. Dirk Nowitzki is an decent rebounder (let's not forget he's 7') at his position at his best. He's a poor defender who can't defend a man or protect the basket. I also can't get out of my head how Stephen Jackson manhandled him in the Mavericks loss to the Warriors. Dirk was hard to defend when he first came into the league, but he got exposed in later years. He's soft, and the only thing he's got going for him is range on his jumpshot. That's another accolade I forgot to mention. Let's face it with MVP votes, I don't think it effectively chooses the most valuable player consistently. I feel as if Dirk only won it because he was the best player on the best team, but he had a good team around him so it's really hard to say that he was the most valuable player (to his team) in the NBA. Let's also try to remember that Dirk has played 5 seasons more than Carmelo, and has past his prime. Those 5 extra seasons play a part in the reason he's been voted for more All NBA teams. Whether or not you believe Carmelo is a superstar is your own personal opinion. I share the opinion of sportswriters and broadcasters of America. The same ones who voted him for All-NBA teams.

With Dirk, I didn't include the earlier years. If you add those in you get more All-NBA and MVP votes as well. Even though I am only taking recent years, he still outstrips Carmelo and Carmelo has still never finished higher than Dirk on an All-NBA team and actually finished much lower two out of the last three years. Carmelo got his first MVP votes and All-NBA consideration early in his career so it isn't like he was lacking for attention before he hit the big time that has kept him off these lists.Personally, I don't consider guys who make 3rd team All-NBA or are borderline 2nd/3rd team (like Carmelo) to be superstars so maybe we are actually agreeing on what Carmelo is and disagreeing on the definition of superstar. As a recap, the last 3 years Carmelo has been 2nd team, 3rd team and not selected.To me the superstars in the league are: Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Durant, Kobe and Chris Paul. Borderline guys are Dirk, Deron, Amare, and Duncan. Former superstars include: Shaq, Nash, Garnett, and Kidd.There are a lot of guys who have made multiple All-NBA teams that aren't among those names. Carmelo falls in with the crowd of Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy, Chauncey Billups, etc. Those guys are not superstars, IMO. Edited January 26, 2011 by AHF

[High5]

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKx4wp59mAshttp-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LAHJ2On-yE&feature=related

That would be an excellent argument if games like that weren't few and far between. Joe's great games are about what Melo averages.

[NineOhTheRino]

I think any deal would have to include Crawford....Crawford, Joe and Melo on the same team wouldn't work.

[AHF]

That would be an excellent argument if games like that weren't few and far between. Joe's great games are about what Melo averages.

An average playoff game for Carmelo means scoring 24.5 points on 42.4% fg%, 7.1 rebounds, 3.0 assists, 1 steal, 1 block every 3 games, and 3 turnovers.A great game for JJ is like last year's game against Miami with 27 points on 53% shooting, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 5 steals, 1 turnover.The big difference is in the steals/blocks (versus Joe's good game, the steals), number of missed shots, and turnovers (or a/to ratio). Carmelo is definitely the better playoff performer but he is right there with Paul Pierce ad not with the Dwayne Wade's of the world.Unlike his regular seasons, at least Carmelo's playoff performances are improving over time so there is hope he will exceed his career averages in future years.

[pimp]

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKx4wp59mAshttp-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LAHJ2On-yE&feature=related

lol, Joe has only had about 8 -10 good games out of the 29 playoff games.NO #1 option has played worst than JJ in the lasttwo playoffs. Edited January 26, 2011 by pimp

[EazyRoc]

With Dirk, I didn't include the earlier years. If you add those in you get more All-NBA and MVP votes as well. Even though I am only taking recent years, he still outstrips Carmelo and Carmelo has still never finished higher than Dirk on an All-NBA team and actually finished much lower two out of the last three years. Carmelo got his first MVP votes and All-NBA consideration early in his career so it isn't like he was lacking for attention before he hit the big time that has kept him off these lists.

Personally, I don't consider guys who make 3rd team All-NBA or are borderline 2nd/3rd team (like Carmelo) to be superstars so maybe we are actually agreeing on what Carmelo is and disagreeing on the definition of superstar. As a recap, the last 3 years Carmelo has been 2nd team, 3rd team and not selected.

To me the superstars in the league are: Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Durant, Kobe and Chris Paul. Borderline guys are Dirk, Deron, Amare, and Duncan.

Former superstars include: Shaq, Nash, Garnett, and Kidd.

There are a lot of guys who have made multiple All-NBA teams that aren't among those names. Carmelo falls in with the crowd of Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy, Chauncey Billups, etc. Those guys are not superstars, IMO.

: a star (as in sports or the movies) who is considered extremely talented, has great public appeal, and can usually command a high salary

That definition is from Merriam-Webster.

I think Carmelo fits the criteria for being a superstar. However, by your definition, Wade wasn't a superstar until the 08-09 season. That 8 time All-Star Vince Carter wasn't a superstar in the early '00s.

I also would be willing to bet that Carmelo will finish ahead of Dirk Nowitzki this year on the All NBA team.

[AHF]

: a star (as in sports or the movies) who is considered extremely talented, has great public appeal, and can usually command a high salary

That definition is from Merriam-Webster.

I think Carmelo fits the criteria for being a superstar. However, by your definition, Wade wasn't a superstar until the 08-09 season. That 8 time All-Star Vince Carter wasn't a superstar in the early '00s.

I also would be willing to bet that Carmelo will finish ahead of Dirk Nowitzki this year on the All NBA team.

It sounds like we are just talking about definition here then if you agree Carmelo is inferior to all those players.

I will note, however, that "superstar" is not what you defined above. A superstar is a more select group than a star. Joe Johnson is a star. He isn't an nba superstar. The bottomline for me is whether I feel someone makes a team a contender. Carmelo isn't in that boat for me. As a third tier star, he is just that: a star who has great public appeal and can command a high salary but is clearly inferior to the elite stars.

(Wade proved he could be clearly the best player on a championship team before 08/09).

Edited January 26, 2011 by AHF

[Diesel]

Hmm Like they say, what have you done for me lately.

Last memory of Joe in the playoffs is sucking!

Don't let a hurt elbow lead your mind.

That would be an excellent argument if games like that weren't few and far between. Joe's great games are about what Melo averages.

The difference is that Joe makes those around him better.

Give Melo: Smoove, Horf, Childress, Marvin, and the cast that Joe had in 2008 and put them up against those Celtics. Hawks get swept. Melo averages about 33/9 but Hawks get swept.

Joe has led this team in assists for 6 years. Joe is a good defender. Joe is a proven scorer. Joe is a guy that makes his teammates better (even when he's not up to par).

Melo is a scorer. That's it.

[Swatguy]

Don't let a hurt elbow lead your mind.The difference is that Joe makes those around him better.Give Melo: Smoove, Horf, Childress, Marvin, and the cast that Joe had in 2008 and put them up against those Celtics. Hawks get swept. Melo averages about 33/9 but Hawks get swept.Joe has led this team in assists for 6 years. Joe is a good defender. Joe is a proven scorer. Joe is a guy that makes his teammates better (even when he's not up to par).Melo is a scorer. That's it.

Diesel we know Joe has skills, there is no doubt. I understand the all-around intangibles. All of it equals Robin because he is not the factor neccessary in big games (all big games). He shrinks. Those two moments you site in the videos should be the norm. Carmelo goes bonkers much of the time while surrounded by less teamwork.If we can work a deal and keep Joe cool. But it should not include Al or any combination of all three of Josh/Jamal/Marvin, unless Nene` is included Edited January 26, 2011 by Swatguy

[Joker]

Wherever you want to argue or not, Melo is a top 5 offensive player. Only offensive player I would take above him is Kobe. I would even take Melo over Durant. This type of bickering is dumb, Melo is much better offensively than anyone on our team.

Edited January 26, 2011 by nbasuperstar40