Kendall Marshall

[Joker]

I had to break my vow of not responding to you over this ridiculous. You are calling the ALL-TIME NBA STEALS leader an average on ball defender. And even if that's the case, which it's not, that would mean he's incredibly quick at playing the passing lanes... and some may even call that type of quickness blur-ish.

Please stop putting words in my mouth, I NEVER said that Stockton was like Westbrook or Rose. There have been many PGs in the NBA history who could break their man down off the dribble and get to the hole without being elite at it like Rose is. So please, please stop with this nonsense.

And with that, the moratorium of not responding to you is back on. Good day.

I changed it to below average on ball defender instead of average. He would get lit up with his on ball defense. He was a gambler, he was either going to rip you or get schooled. He was lucky he played in the hand checking era.

Most NBA PG's can beat their man off the dribble but to consistently be a threat at will is what Westbrook and Rose have. Stockton never had that. Most PG's are never that. In fact, Stockton was never close to elite in that either. Just solid. You said it out of your mouth. I corrected you but you wanted to be hard headed and restate what you wrote.

I am probably one of John's biggest fans so it kills me you are saying this and now you are claiming you aren't going to respond to me. Real mature Dolfan. Real mature.

John Stockton couldn't take his man off the dribble at will.

Saying John Stockton couldn't take his man off the dribble is one of the most uneducated things I've ever read on this board. Sorry but I've seen him break down the greatest player ever, MJ, down off the dribble on multiple occasions and you'd have to be cat quick and incredibly skilled to do that to the guy in his prime. Comparing this guy's peak ability to arguably the greatest pure PG ever...

I tried correcting you but your hard headed.

And sorry but you're flat out wrong regarding Stockton and if you really believe he couldn't break down guys off the dribble at will then you should give up your scouting job aa you're in the wrong business.

My issue is that this guy doesn't even remotely have a ceiling as high as Stockton and you seem to think he does. Which means you're drastically over inflating his potential or you're drastically disrespecting Stockton.

Nostalgic moment 101.

[coachx]

This is a vain comparison. You are saying Stockton was a blur and he was never that. Dolfan is talking like Stockton was Westbrook or Rose and he was never that. You are combining Rose with Stockton and creating this mystical player. Stockton was who he was. A pass first playmaking PG who played below average on ball defense and great team defense.

Was Steve Nash, in his prime, as good of an athlete as Rose or Westbrook ? Of course not........................Nash was still a blur with the ball in his hands and could take players off the dribble at will. Much like Stockton did.

[Joker]

Was Steve Nash, in his prime, as good of an athlete as Rose or Westbrook ? Of course not........................Nash was still a blur with the ball in his hands and could take players off the dribble at will. Much like Stockton did.

Stop it, Nash is a better offensive player than Stockton was. They aren't even the same type of player either. Nash was an offensive monster who played below the rim. Stockton was a great team defender. Nash is just bad on defense period. They aren't nothing alike. If Nash wanted to score, he will score. Stock had to pick his spots and hope they didn't take Karl out of the play and sit on JH or he was SOL. Nash is not a system PG like Stock was. I compare and contrast this to Amare v. Al. A system player type in Al to an offensive monster in a healthy Amare.Nash is and was faster than Stockton. Quickness is about the same. Now Nash has been a blur at times as well.

[Admin]

Was Steve Nash, in his prime, as good of an athlete as Rose or Westbrook ? Of course not........................Nash was still a blur with the ball in his hands and could take players off the dribble at will. Much like Stockton did.

Dude you might as well be arguing with someone who didn't live long enough to see that the world is actually round. No way you're going to convince him as he has no ability to admit that he was wrong and he wasn't around to see the hundreds of games that you and I and many others here actually saw, on television and in person, instead of just watching YouTube clips.

[Joker]

Dude you might as well be arguing with someone who didn't live long enough to see that the world is actually round. No way you're going to convince him as he has no ability to admit that he was wrong and he wasn't around to see the hundreds of games that you and I and many others here actually saw, on television and in person, instead of just watching YouTube clips.

I thought you were done. If you are going to address me, do it as a man. I don't even go by clips and never have or I just won't comment on it but if it makes you sleep better, go ahead. Please, go and keep believing Stockton is Rose and the other nostalgic things like coke was better in the 80's. I don't have time to waste with cocky guys like you.

[coachx]

I thought you were done. If you are going to address me, do it as a man. I don't even go by clips and never have or I just won't comment on it but if it makes you sleep better, go ahead.

He was not even addressing you.How do you know how players played in the 80's if you were not around to watch games and don't watch tape of games from that era ?Do you just watch them play in their 30's and imagine what their games may have looked like in their 20's ?Jason Kidd was a blur with the Nets and his 1st stint with the Mavs.............but for those just old enough to have seen his 2nd stint with the Mavericks may never imagine that he used to be one of the fastest and quickest PGs in the game. Edited June 18, 2012 by coachx

[coachx]

Stop it, Nash is a better offensive player than Stockton was. They aren't even the same type of player either. Nash was an offensive monster who played below the rim. Stockton was a great team defender. Nash is just bad on defense period. They aren't nothing alike. If Nash wanted to score, he will score. Stock had to pick his spots and hope they didn't take Karl out of the play and sit on JH or he was SOL. Nash is not a system PG like Stock was. I compare and contrast this to Amare v. Al. A system player type in Al to an offensive monster in a healthy Amare.Nash is and was faster than Stockton. Quickness is about the same. Now Nash has been a blur at times as well.

Thanks........this is all anyone needs to know that you never saw John Stockton until he well into his 30's. JH was not even a teamate until Stockton was 32. All of your references are from the mid 90's foward.What about the days of Jeff Malone at SG, he was a 20 ppg guy,......before him there was Dr Dunkenstein / Darrell Griffeth who was a 20 ppg SG. Its just obvious you were not around for that era of basketball or you would not leave big names like them out in your "evaluations."

[Joker]

Thanks........this is all anyone needs to know that you never saw John Stockton until he well into his 30's. JH was not even a teamate until Stockton was 32. All of your references are from the mid 90's foward.What about the days of Jeff Malone at SG, he was a 20 ppg guy,......before him there was Dr Dunkenstein / Darrell Griffeth who was a 20 ppg SG. Its just obvious you were not around for that era of basketball or you would not leave big names like them out in your "evaluations."

You really have no clue what you are talking about. In fact, go to any reputable site and post the stuff you believe and see if ANYONE believes you. This is as nutty as that Ruhiel kid on Travis Leslie and Jordan Hill.I know who was on the roster each year especially in the 80's as I watched the team play via tape. Quit cherry picking my posts and answer me straight up. You are becoming a troll. I hate trolls. They say delusional stuff. i.e. Matt Ryan will be as good as Peyton Manning. DeMarcus Cousins>Tim Duncan potentially. Josh Smith is the next Nique.

He was not even addressing you.How do you know how players played in the 80's if you were not around to watch games and don't watch tape of games from that era ?Do you just watch them play in their 30's and imagine what their games may have looked like in their 20's ?Jason Kidd was a blur with the Nets and his 1st stint with the Mavs.............but for those just old enough to have seen his 2nd stint with the Mavericks may never imagine that he used to be one of the fastest and quickest PGs in the game.

Jason Kidd ran a 4.4 in HS and was one of the fastest players we have had in the NBA. Why mention him in contrast to Stockton?I did watch tapes from the era. A lot of tapes. I even said I watched a lot of tapes from that era.Of course I didn't watch tape from the 20's or 30's as they don't exist much less the game itself.He was addressing me while quoting you. Edited June 18, 2012 by Joker

[willthepureshooter]

Are we kicking the age card again???

Yeah! Lol! Come on guys, yall are giving Stockton too much credit! No one playing in the NBA at that time would consider John Stockton a 'blur' with the ball. I mean, where are you guys getting this stuff from?? If you're wrong, you should admit it. We all grew up watching the Utah Jazz play basketball. And I don't care how many strains of grey you have in your hair, I'm not buying this new found Stockton speed crap. Its ridiculous!

Edited June 18, 2012 by willthepureshooter

[coachx]

Are we kicking the age card again???

Yeah! Lol! Come on guys, yall are giving Stockton too much credit! No one playing in the NBA at that time would consider John Stockton a 'blur' with the ball. I mean, where are you guys getting this stuff from?? If you're wrong, you should admit it. We all grew up watching the Utah Jazz play basketball. And I don't care how many strains of grey you have in your hair, I'm not buying this new found Stockton speed crap. Its ridiculous!

Coming from a 28 year old ? This is the only basketball you were watching before Stockton was in his 30's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV8zO9My5cQ

You don't see me breaking down Pistol Pete, Lou Hudson, Willis Reed, or other guys from the 70's b/c I was not around to see them play.

[Joker]

Coming from a 28 year old ? This is the only basketball you were watching before Stockton was in his 30's. http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV8zO9My5cQYou don't see me breaking down Pistol Pete, Lou Hudson, Willis Reed, or other guys from the 70's b/c I was not around to see them play.

[edited] Edited June 18, 2012 by Dolfan23
Edited and given an official warning about abusive behavior

[willthepureshooter]

Coming from a 28 year old ? This is the only basketball you were watching before Stockton was in his 30's. http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV8zO9My5cQYou don't see me breaking down Pistol Pete, Lou Hudson, Willis Reed, or other guys from the 70's b/c I was not around to see them play.

Ok... but let's see....John Stockton got into the NBA in 1984...His best years were between 88' and 96'..Which made me 5yrs old in 1988 and 13yrs old in 1996..I still remember the Olympic bombing in 1996.. Boy, that was looong ago....You stated that you weren't around to see good ol Pistol Pete play in the 70's..So obviously you weren't around(born) in the 60's or 70's...Now, the only decade left for your birth would be late 70's and the 80's...Which makes you not much older than me...So whats your point???Basketball is basketball, and common sense is common sense..John Stockton wasn't that type of player..

[Admin]

Are we kicking the age card again???

Yeah! Lol! Come on guys, yall are giving Stockton too much credit! No one playing in the NBA at that time would consider John Stockton a 'blur' with the ball. I mean, where are you guys getting this stuff from?? If you're wrong, you should admit it. We all grew up watching the Utah Jazz play basketball. And I don't care how many strains of grey you have in your hair, I'm not buying this new found Stockton speed crap. Its ridiculous!

I will admit that the term "blur" is a bit flattering for Stockton's speed and quickness... but he was far and away quicker with the ball than some are giving him credit for and regardless of the unpopular opinion here, he was absolutely capable of breaking down the best defenders from the perimeter, including sir Michael Jordan himself on numerous occasions.

[coachx]

I will admit that the term "blur" is a bit flattering for Stockton's speed and quickness... but he was far and away quicker with the ball than some are giving him credit for and regardless of the unpopular opinion here, he was absolutely capable of breaking down the best defenders from the perimeter, including sir Michael Jordan himself on numerous occasions.

The term blur was 1st used by me when Stockton was being compared to Marshall.........b/c compared to Marshal; Stockton was a blur. Stockton was extremely fast and quick with the ball.Compared to many of the PGs of the 80s Stockton was a blur. Of course comparing him to a different era, with different perimeter defense rules, like Rose and Westbrook he does not equal their speed............but comparing him to the PGs of his early days like Magic Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Mark Price, Vern Fleming, Dereck Harper, John Lucas, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Terry Porter etc. he was simply faster then them. Hand checks and physical perimeter defense were allowed then.Sure in the 80's you had Mo Cheeks and then Isiah Thomas who were just quicker then everyone else (over 6' tall). You had a few jitter bugs 5'9'' and under who mailnly came off the bench like like Webb, Adams, and Bogues.Then some lightning quick guys like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson entered the league as teh decade turned. Gary Payton too though he was never really a pure speed burner.Guys that did not grow up in that era compare players of yesterday to players of today b/c that is all they know........rather then comparing them to players of the era in which they played. I know they can't help it b/c they never saw the players of yester-year play.....they simply make comparisons to who they know. Edited June 18, 2012 by coachx

[willthepureshooter]

I've never compared Stockton, by far one of the greatest point guards in the NBA to ever play the game to any school player. I don't know where you got that from but I definitely didn't say that at all.

[Admin]

The term blur was 1st used by me when Stockton was being compared to Marshall.........b/c compared to Marshal; Stockton was a blur. Stockton was extremely fast and quick with the ball.Compared to many of the PGs of the 80s Stockton was a blur. Of course comparing him to a different era, with different perimeter defense rules, like Rose and Westbrook he does not equal their speed............but comparing him to the PGs of his early days like Magic Johnson, Mark Price, Vern Fleming, Dereck Harper, John Lucas, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Terry Porter etc. he was simply faster then them. Hand checks and physical perimeter defense were allowed then.Sure in the 80's you had Mo Cheeks and then Isiah Thomas who were just quicker then everyone else (over 6' tall). You had a few jitter bugs 5'9'' and under who mailnly came off the bench like like Webb, Adams, and Bogues.Then some lightning quick guys like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson entered the league as teh decade turned. Gary Payton too though he was never really a pure speed burner.Guys that did not grow up in that era compare players of yesterday to players of today b/c that is all they know........rather then comparing them to players of the era in which they played. I know they can't help it b/c they never saw the players of yester-year play.....they simply make comparisons to who they know.

Valid points Coach!

[coachx]

I've never compared Stockton, by far one of the greatest point guards in the NBA to ever play the game to any school player. I don't know where you got that from but I definitely didn't say that at all.

Its the topic of this thread. From the get go joker compares slow footed Marshall to Stockton............you jumped in at the very end.

[Joker]

The term blur was 1st used by me when Stockton was being compared to Marshall.........b/c compared to Marshal; Stockton was a blur. Stockton was extremely fast and quick with the ball.Compared to many of the PGs of the 80s Stockton was a blur. Of course comparing him to a different era, with different perimeter defense rules, like Rose and Westbrook he does not equal their speed............but comparing him to the PGs of his early days like Magic Johnson, Mark Price, Vern Fleming, Dereck Harper, John Lucas, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Terry Porter etc. he was simply faster then them. Hand checks and physical perimeter defense were allowed then.Sure you had Mo Cheeks and Isiah Thomas who quicker then everyone else (over 6' tall). You had a few jitter bugs 5'9'' and under who mailnly came off the bench like like Webb, Adams, and Bogues.Then some lightning quick guys like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson entered the league. Gary Payton too though he was never really a pure speed burner.Guys that did not grow up in that era compare players of yesterday to players of today b/c that is all they know........rather then comparing them to players of the era in which they played. I know they can't help it b/c they never saw the players of yester-year play.

The term blur was 1st used by me when Stockton was being compared to Marshall.........b/c compared to Marshal; Stockton was a blur. Stockton was extremely fast and quick with the ball.

You didn't say that. You said Stockton was a blur twice. To the point that you just stated, they are both more quick than fast. Neither are blurs.He wasn't a blur in the 80's either compared to NBA PG's. Magic Johnson, Mark Price, Vern Fleming, Derek Harper, John Lucas, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Terry Porter weren't known for speed but many guys had it especially the short ones. Rose and Westbrook would be rare then as they are now.You said he was a blur, now you are trying to say he's a blur compared to Marshall, now his era. Make up your mind. What is it. Just admit you are wrong and move on. It's not that big of a deal. I took a warning for you, at least you can do is admit you don't really know what you are talking about and got carried away in the argument. You got your wish, I have points to my name. Now you should just admit you were wrong which has been clearly obvious since the start of this thread.I watched more tape of the players in the past than I do of the present. That's why I take to disgust when you insult my intellect with nonsense. When I use guys like Bernard King as comparison for guys like James Harden. I have seen ample amount of footage to say that. Is it always accurate, no. But I have a good instinct for it. I would rather you not disrespect me and I will try to return to favor. Edited June 18, 2012 by Joker

[coachx]

The term blur was 1st used by me when Stockton was being compared to Marshall. When compared to Marshall, Stockton was a blur. Stockton was extremely fast and quick with the ball.

Compared to many of the PGs of the 80s Stockton was a blur. Of course comparing him to a different era, with different perimeter defensive rules, making hand checks illegal, and allowing players to walk and cup the ball more helps to illustrate the evolution of the NBA PG. When comparing Stockton's speed to Rose and Westbrook, Stockton does not equal their speed............but comparing him to the PGs of his early years like Magic Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Mark Price, Vern Fleming, Dereck Harper, John Lucas, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Terry Porter etc....... John Stocton was simply faster then all of them. Hand checks and physical perimeter defense were allowed then.

Sure in the 80's you had Mo Cheeks and then Isiah Thomas who were just quicker then everyone else (over 6' tall). You had a few jitter bugs 5'9'' and under who mailnly came off the bench like like Webb, Adams, and Bogues.

Then some lightning quick guys like Tim Hardaway and Kevin Johnson entered the league as the decade turned. Gary Payton too though he was never really a pure speed burner.

Guys that did not grow up in that era compare players of yesterday to players of today b/c that is all they know........rather then comparing them to players of the era in which they played. I know they can't help it b/c they never saw the players of yester-year play.....they simply make comparisons to who they know.

[Joker]

Guys that did not grow up in that era compare players of yesterday to players of today b/c that is all they know........rather then comparing them to players of the era in which they played.

Do you not understand what you wrote? You are insulting anyone younger saying that we don't know because we were born XnX. The lack of knowledge within this message worries me. Seriously, do you believe what you are saying? Edited June 18, 2012 by Joker