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Woody = Undeserved firing!


Diesel

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- 65 - 32 as coach of the Knicks

- 4 consecutive winning seasons ( 2 in ATL . . 2 in NY ).

- 5 consecutive playoff appearances. ( 3 in ATL . . 2 in NY )

- Knicks on the verge of winning their 1st division title in 20 years.

- Knicks on the verge of reaching 50 wins for the first time since the 2000 season.

He may not be a top notch coach, but don't talk like that dude is garbage. He teaches the right things that promotes winning. He's gotten Carmelo, a player much maligned for his effort on defense, to put up BY FAR the best defensive season he's ever had.

In Atlanta, all he had were 5 good players, 2 inconsistent players, and a bunch of either underachieving vets or inconsistent rookies.

I would've loved to see what Woody could've done with these current Hawks. Korver would still have the green light to fire away. Ivan would be one of his favorite players, because he plays hard on defense and he rebounds the basketball. More may have been asked of Devin Harris offensively. With Teague at the point, his role in the offense would be increased. Smith would be chided into playing more and more inside. And Horford would be "that guy" on offense who would be dependend upon to produce in crunch time.

Here's what I will say. Teague has progressed most under LD. Under LD, he's almost the star I thought he'd be when we drafted him. Woody didn't do much for PGs. That's why It's good he has Felton and Kidd.

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Because of the playoff failures and the somewhat unconventional roster, I think some people underestimate how much talent Woodson had to work with compared to the rest of the "LEastern" conference. His accomplishments were hardly accomplishments. He was as predictable as predictable gets from his "gameplans" to his rotations, the extent of his offensive genius was putting the ball in the hands of Joe or the other veteran guard on the team, and he had no skills in player development. I don't think Drew is a great coach by any means, but he's still clearly an upgrade over Woodson.

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I'm not a big Larry Drew fan at all but he's twice the head coach that Woodson is. Mike Woodson wouldnt even make the playoffs with the roster we have now, and there would be no question Jeff would be gone.

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It's tough to evaluate coaches without seeing them in action in practice and what they're preaching to their players. Players give us all the information we need to form an opinion of them on game night while coaches do a lot behind the scenes in terms of forming a culture. With the long recent history of the Knicks being piss poor, I think he's underrated. Same as Scott Brooks, Eric Spoelstra, and Eric Vogel who can rarely garner praise for their teams' success. Again, these guys' predecessors and mentors' endorsements (Brown with Woody, Riley with Spo, Vogel under one of the Greatest Basketball minds of All Time in Bird) ring loudly for me. That and being ranked fairly high in both offensive and defensive points says a lot as well (11th and 8th respectively for Woody). He was the defensive coordinator for a defensive juggernaut comprised of the least talented/ decorated group of NBA champions we've ever seen. I cannot discount that.

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One name: Carmelo Anthony

One fact: oldest team in the league. Everyone second on thier depth chart is over 30. Melo's a beast offensively, I give him that. He's the single measuring stick for the leagues best defenders. While he may be argubly the toughest scorer to guard of his era (much bigger than Kobe, much stronger than Durant, more polished jumper than LeBron), he isn't the two-way player that most superstars are so I can't discount what a coach does because he has him. You can do that for Kobe and LeBron because they are no strangers to the All-Defensive Team while Melo will never sniff one. Woody would call on Shumpert, Kidd, and even Chandler or JR to force a one-on-one stop before Melo.
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65 points at the half in OKC behind The Great Chris Copeland and his 13-3-3. 16 assists to 2 team turnovers. 36 from the bench with the audacity to put Shumpert on Durant. That man got them boys playing.

Edited by benhillboy
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Woody is not the worst coach but he is limited and didn't do much overachieving here in Atlanta. Losing the worst single series in NBA history doesn't help the resume much either. The players had tuned him out and this was a song we had all heard before by the time Woody didn't get a new contract offer. It was time to separate.

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I want the Knicks to fail for the same reason I want the Giants, Jets, Yankees, and Mets to fail. It has nothing to do with Woodson. Despite my opinion of him as a coach, I got no reason to dislike the man. I'm indifferent towards Brooklyn. They're still the NJ Nets in my mind.

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I want the Knicks to fail for the same reason I want the Giants, Jets, Yankees, and Mets to fail. It has nothing to do with Woodson. Despite my opinion of him as a coach, I got no reason to dislike the man. I'm indifferent towards Brooklyn. They're still the NJ Nets in my mind.

Shhhh, we're all petty little children. I damn near slit my wrists when Terry nearly won two championships because all the criticisms we had of his time in Atlanta were unfounded and born out hate.
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I want to see how a Knicks do against the Celtics in the playoffs. I still have nightmares about how the Celtics completely abused the switching defense and pretty much got whatever match-up they wanted.

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Teague is nowhere near being a star.

You don't like Teague. Point taken. He's not CP3... Noted. However, we're not going out looking for a PG is my point. We can focus on the real problem with this team. A scorer and a Big.

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I'm sure this has been echoed before but Woodson is having success in New York because his isolation offense works perfectly with Carmelo Anthony it didn't with Joe Johnson that's the end of the story. The personnel on Atlanta didn't jive with Woodsons offensive style

Edited by taz
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Here's a pretty cool piece on their offensive spacing: http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/8/4196866/new-york-knicks-breakdown-thunder-nba-playoffs-2012 You have to give Woody, a defensive coach, some props for getting this efficiency out of two players who an offensive, 1,000 win coach in Karl couldn't. I think Kidd is the one who makes it all go, though. His decision-making and passing is still second to none at 90 years old. They'll make it hard on the Heat, but ultimately LeBron's off-ball defense on Melo and keeping him off the offensive glass in the fourth quarters will be the difference.

Edited by benhillboy
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I'm sure this has been echoed before but Woodson is having success in New York because his isolation offense works perfectly with Carmelo Anthony it didn't with Joe Johnson that's the end of the story. The personnel on Atlanta didn't jive with Woodsons offensive style

I think Joe making it to the allstar game 5 times under Woody was testament of how well it worked for Joe. The problem here was BK's picks. We dropped the ball horribly with Marvin and Shelden. Those were redundant picks that didn't bring in a new skillset. We still have log jams because of the BK years. Moreover, Woody has NY playing defense. It's funny that DAntoni did nothing but fail with the Knicks but with the same players, Woody was able to win?

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Here's a pretty cool piece on their offensive spacing: http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/8/4196866/new-york-knicks-breakdown-thunder-nba-playoffs-2012 You have to give Woody, a defensive coach, some props for getting this efficiency out of two players who an offensive, 1,000 win coach in Karl couldn't. I think Kidd is the one who makes it all go, though. His decision-making and passing is still second to none at 90 years old. They'll make it hard on the Heat, but ultimately LeBron's off-ball defense on Melo and keeping him off the offensive glass in the fourth quarters will be the difference.

Why do you keep railing on Karl? You do realize that his Nuggets team sans Carmelo and JR has a better record in the West than the Knicks, right? You do realize that he's had an average of 50 wins with that team and was within 2 wins of going to a Finals once, the only time Carmelo has ever been out the 1st round pre and post Karl, right? You do realize that he should also be credited with saving JR's NBA career when he was practically a throwaway for 2 second rounders by New Orleans, right? That he was also responsible for convincing Carmelo to be more serious about his NBA career by cutting out the off the court nonsense and transforming his body from that pudgy mess it was, right?

So why is it exactly that in trying to get respect for Woodson..........you are disrespecting a future Hall of Famer?

Could Carmelo's greater efficiency* (dubious statement considering he's posted similar and better TS% numbers before under Karl) just so happen to coincide with *gasp* him being at the precise age that most NBA players and legends alike enter their prime?

Could the fact that not even 14 months ago JR was playing in China and upon returning to the NBA all he could secure for his services is a contract paying him less than Dahntay Jones? (another dubious statement on his efficiency considering that he has posted numerous better seasons under, you guessed it, George Karl)

Woody isn't doing anything miraculous or that hasn't been seen before. He didn't invent playing max spacing small ball or putting Carmelo at the 4, heck both Karl and his predecessor, D'Antoni, experimented with that before the wave took over the entire NBA leading the Heat to win a title with it. He's running the exact same system and style of play he had here where he slowed the pace down to value offensive possessions in low risk "sets" while running a switching zone on D. The Knicks are the best at not turning the ball over while being next to last in assists. They are second in the league in 3 point attempts while being 1st in makes.

They are less than mediocre defensive squad while being 3rd in offensive efficiency......this sounds exactly like.....the 09'-10' Hawks except replace Mike Bibby with the duo of Felton and Kidd. Replace Mo and Mario with Shumpert. Replace a rookie 21 year old Jeffrey with a 35 year old rookie Prigioni. Replace Jamal with JR. Replace Marvin standing in the corner for inconsistent shooting with Novak and Copeland standing in the corner for consistent shooting. Replace Zaza fumbling passes and layups with Tyson Chandler being the most efficient finisher. Replace Al mixing a mid range jumper with devastating pick and roll play with Amar'e. Replace Josh wrecking havoc on D while failing to find the paint on O with Sheed. Then most importantly, replace Joe isolating from 30 feet with Carmelo isolating from 30 feet.

The shit works and has worked it's just that come playoff time......lack of creativity and lack of individual ability in a system predicated on it massively hurt the Hawks.

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I was going to point out that Anthony and JR Smith put up bigger and more efficient numbers at times under Karl but Macecase has already laid all this out better than I would have. I will just second his post on the individual effectiveness of these players and the team effectiveness.

Woody is going to earn the big respect (or not) in the playoffs because his regular season success at its very best doesn't measure up to George Karl's.

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