Woody = Undeserved firing!

[macdaddy]

You don't like Teague. Point taken. He's not CP3... Noted. However, we're not going out looking for a PG is my point. We can focus on the real problem with this team. A scorer and a Big.

This may be your most efficient post ever. Teague is a really good point guard. And Ferry's true test is doing exactly what you said. Get us a scorer and a big and we are rolling.

[benhillboy]

Why do you keep railing on Karl? You do realize that his Nuggets team sans Carmelo and JR has a better record in the West than the Knicks, right? You do realize that he's had an average of 50 wins with that team and was within 2 wins of going to a Finals once, the only time Carmelo has ever been out the 1st round pre and post Karl, right? You do realize that he should also be credited with saving JR's NBA career when he was practically a throwaway for 2 second rounders by New Orleans, right? That he was also responsible for convincing Carmelo to be more serious about his NBA career by cutting out the off the court nonsense and transforming his body from that pudgy mess it was, right? So why is it exactly that in trying to get respect for Woodson..........you are disrespecting a future Hall of Famer? Could Carmelo's greater efficiency* (dubious statement considering he's posted similar and better TS% numbers before under Karl) just so happen to coincide with *gasp* him being at the precise age that most NBA players and legends alike enter their prime? Could the fact that not even 14 months ago JR was playing in China and upon returning to the NBA all he could secure for his services is a contract paying him less than Dahntay Jones? (another dubious statement on his efficiency considering that he has posted numerous better seasons under, you guessed it, George Karl) Woody isn't doing anything miraculous or that hasn't been seen before. He didn't invent playing max spacing small ball or putting Carmelo at the 4, heck both Karl and his predecessor, D'Antoni, experimented with that before the wave took over the entire NBA leading the Heat to win a title with it. He's running the exact same system and style of play he had here where he slowed the pace down to value offensive possessions in low risk "sets" while running a switching zone on D. The Knicks are the best at not turning the ball over while being next to last in assists. They are second in the league in 3 point attempts while being 1st in makes. They are less than mediocre defensive squad while being 3rd in offensive efficiency......this sounds exactly like.....the 09'-10' Hawks except replace Mike Bibby with the duo of Felton and Kidd. Replace Mo and Mario with Shumpert. Replace a rookie 21 year old Jeffrey with a 35 year old rookie Prigioni. Replace Jamal with JR. Replace Marvin standing in the corner for inconsistent shooting with Novak and Copeland standing in the corner for consistent shooting. Replace Zaza fumbling passes and layups with Tyson Chandler being the most efficient finisher. Replace Al mixing a mid range jumper with devastating pick and roll play with Amar'e. Replace Josh wrecking havoc on D while failing to find the paint on O with Sheed. Then most importantly, replace Joe isolating from 30 feet with Carmelo isolating from 30 feet. The shit works and has worked it's just that come playoff time......lack of creativity and lack of individual ability in a system predicated on it massively hurt the Hawks.

All valid points. I hear you. I was wrong with the scoring efficiency thing. Not knocking Karl. I just rather have Woody coaching my defense rather than Karl who just pays lip service to it. An undersized Pistons team was a defensive juggernaut because Brown and Woody challenged guys individually, like putting JR on Durant, having a rookie in Shump to garner signifigant All-Defensive votes, making Ben Wallace a star, coaching Josh to his only All-Defensive Team 2nd Team, Horford being the highest ranked post defender one year, the list of players he's maximized defensively goes on and on. Melo has never been much of a defender and probably never will be. I don't know how you get "less than mediocre" defensively from 8th in scoring defense, though. They usually get stops when they're needed, especially in the fourth. That trade was amazingly beneficial for both teams considering how many players were involved, but Melo didn't want out for nothing.

[MaceCase]

They are 8th in scoring defense because they are 26th in pace. Low possessions means low points scored, tis why most don't follow points scored or allowed because it doesn't take into account pace. The Knicks are 18th in defensive efficiency (the amount of points they allow per 100 possessions normalized) a ranking worse than (I'll check later, on a train) any of his playoff Hawk teams posted. I don't know why people still buy into the Woody as a defensive guru tripe. He's yet to coach a top 10 D but plenty top 10 Os

[Bahamut]

NY this year: fewest assists in the league, also fewest turnovers.

Hard to turn the ball over if you never pass

[lethalweapon3]

My apologies for the necromancy. I know I was in the "deserved firing, followed by an undeserved hiring" camp, the latter view I've tempered over time.

But win or lose, the minute Woody got the assistant job in New York, I knew D'Antoni's days were numbered, and I begged the day would come that I'd enjoy a mix chock full o' understated hilarity like this that only true Hawks and Knicks fans could enjoy. Congrats, Woody!

~lw3

Edited April 18, 2013 by lethalweapon3

[macdaddy]

I know this thread is about woody but there is a new standard of excellence in the coach's reaction department and his name is Lindsey Hunter. It helps to have Beasley jacking horrible jumpers on your team.

[benhillboy]

That video was too funny. Didn't look much like a Hoosier or a Knick when that ball came at his face. And how about the excitement of the kids wanting his autograph? I'm sure that's never happened here. The Orlando debacle notwithstanding, I've always liked Wood and congrats on the upcoming signifigant COTY votes. His old ass roster, signifigant man games missed due to injury, and really never having an extended drop off from the top 2 slots in the East since opening night are in his favor, let alone succeeding in the pressure cooker that is King Media Market New York City when basketball times have been so rough for so long. He's gonna have to earn his money out the gate versus Doc, though.

Edited April 18, 2013 by benhillboy

[phoostal]

Well I just noticed this thread and since I guess you are calling out me with my previous comments. I don't care what Woody has done with the Knicks. In my opinion I don't think he was a good coach. If you watched any Atlanta Hawks games you would know this fact. He and Mike Brown are the worst coaches at making second half adjustments in games. Woody would routinely get out coached in second halves especially in playoffs. His offense or lack there of is miserable to watch. ISO plays can only take you so far. I wouldn't be surprised if Celtics beat them. To me they are an overrated team. Lucky for the them the East is not strong. If they do advance to play the Heat they will get smoked. If the Knicks advance in the playoffs it will be because Melo is hot on offense and Chandler is awesome on the defensive end. That has nothing to do with Woody as the coach.

First thoughts

Second take

I will say this. What Woody has done with the Knicks this year... with the amount of injuries that they have had is very good work.

Some might say IsoMelo however, those other guys know when to step up.

I think he has a very good mix of player who have maturity.

All signs points to a Woody in Atlanta that had some immature basketball players with low BBIQ.

LD inherited that same team and even though we made some big trades this past offseason, we have the same problems we have always had. Little maturity, no BBIQ.

I just hope that we don't do unto LD as we had done unto Woody without considering what he had to work with.

[DrReality]

Hard to be a good coach when u have lousy owners n GM

[Diesel]

Well I just noticed this thread and since I guess you are calling out me with my previous comments. I don't care what Woody has done with the Knicks. In my opinion I don't think he was a good coach. If you watched any Atlanta Hawks games you would know this fact. He and Mike Brown are the worst coaches at making second half adjustments in games. Woody would routinely get out coached in second halves especially in playoffs. His offense or lack there of is miserable to watch. ISO plays can only take you so far. I wouldn't be surprised if Celtics beat them. To me they are an overrated team. Lucky for the them the East is not strong. If they do advance to play the Heat they will get smoked. If the Knicks advance in the playoffs it will be because Melo is hot on offense and Chandler is awesome on the defensive end. That has nothing to do with Woody as the coach.

Stop wishing up stuff.

Woody has reached Carmelo and a team full of underacheivers and got them to play defense and work together on offense. That is the essence of good coaching. D'Antonio couldn't do it. Neither could the guy before him.

History will show that coaching Smoove is very difficult.

[phoostal]

Stop wishing up stuff.

Woody has reached Carmelo and a team full of underacheivers and got them to play defense and work together on offense. That is the essence of good coaching. D'Antonio couldn't do it. Neither could the guy before him.

History will show that coaching Smoove is very difficult.

Congrats Woody good regular season! If that is what you want to hear Diesel. I'm not wishing stuff up or you don't know basketball. He is horrible at adjustments and relies on an ISO offense. I will give him credit that he is very good with defensive execution, but it also helps when you have an excellent defender in Chandler to help out the guys that can't keep their guys in front of them. Woody is not an upper echelon coach.

[buckeye242424]

Stop wishing up stuff.

Woody has reached Carmelo and a team full of underacheivers and got them to play defense and work together on offense. That is the essence of good coaching. D'Antonio couldn't do it. Neither could the guy before him.

History will show that coaching Smoove is very difficult.

C'mon...he told Carmelo go shoot as much as you want. Go score 30 on iso's on 9-27 shooting.

Chandler is the best defensive player in the league, and and an Olympian. Smith is, arguably, the best 6th man in the league and fits perfect with Woody's iso offense. The east sucks and the Knicks have as much talent as anyone except Miami. Roll the ball out there Woody....

Woody's philosophy works better than Dantonio's because he has old heads that can't run.

"Sheed, Thomas, Kidd, Camby....all you old guys....play hard defense, and rest on offense because Jr and Melo will score all our points"....

That shit doesn't work in the playoffs. I won't be surprised if Boston upsets them. Knicks have better players, but Boston has a better coach.

[GameTime]

Anyone else getting a chuckle hearing Knicks fans complain about Iso Melo and lack of ball movement and adjustments in the playoffs?

[Diesel]

Congrats Woody good regular season! If that is what you want to hear Diesel. I'm not wishing stuff up or you don't know basketball. He is horrible at adjustments and relies on an ISO offense. I will give him credit that he is very good with defensive execution, but it also helps when you have an excellent defender in Chandler to help out the guys that can't keep their guys in front of them. Woody is not an upper echelon coach.

Were you describing Woody or Thom Tibbadeau?

[Diesel]

C'mon...he told Carmelo go shoot as much as you want. Go score 30 on iso's on 9-27 shooting.

Chandler is the best defensive player in the league, and and an Olympian. Smith is, arguably, the best 6th man in the league and fits perfect with Woody's iso offense. The east sucks and the Knicks have as much talent as anyone except Miami. Roll the ball out there Woody....

Woody's philosophy works better than Dantonio's because he has old heads that can't run.

"Sheed, Thomas, Kidd, Camby....all you old guys....play hard defense, and rest on offense because Jr and Melo will score all our points"....

That shit doesn't work in the playoffs. I won't be surprised if Boston upsets them. Knicks have better players, but Boston has a better coach.

Uhm. B.S.

The Knicks have a team full of people who the rest of the league had given up on. Even Melo. The only sought after knicks were Melo and Chandler.

Moreover, you get a bunch of old guys who can't run and you tell them to play defense... AND they do it??

Great logic there.

[phoostal]

Were you describing Woody or Thom Tibbadeau?

Is this about TT or Woody? I understand your point. But I never said TT was an upper echelon coach. Congrats to Woody on that playoff win today. Good Defense and Melo scores almost half the teams points (mentioned in a previous post of mine). Hopefully Melo can keep up the scoring barrage or they just might lose this series. Guess there is a big difference between JJ and Melo. Didn't know the league gave up on Melo? Interesting theory.

[benhillboy]

We all have different perceptions, but there is no way their roster should be as good as they are. I like Chandler as much as the next man, but I think people greatly overrate him. He's just been lucky to find his niche on championship caliber teams similar to a Ben Wallace, no great player by any stretch of the imagination if you look over total career. Same for Chandler, who was a laughing stock with Curry early on in Chicago. Kidd can't shoot, Felton can't stay in shape, Melo can't defend, and JR is erratic. We not gonna mention having a pair of 35 and 26 year-old rookies, a one-dimensional shooter, another one-dimensional soohmore defender coming off an ACL, and a boatload of Bigs who you remeber from the 90's. How is that a top-talented roster?I've enjoyed watching the Knicks more than any other team this year, on both ends, and it's because of gritty wins like the one today. Their point differential tells me they'll get to 100 before you do way more times than not, don't turn the ball over, and make key stops in the fourth. That's all Woody.

[Diesel]

Is this about TT or Woody? I understand your point. But I never said TT was an upper echelon coach. Congrats to Woody on that playoff win today. Good Defense and Melo scores almost half the teams points (mentioned in a previous post of mine). Hopefully Melo can keep up the scoring barrage or they just might lose this series. Guess there is a big difference between JJ and Melo. Didn't know the league gave up on Melo? Interesting theory.

Melo has had many critiques about defense and being a selfish player.

Under Woody, he has played defense and been a little less selfish.

Just 1 year ago... Here's the criticism of Anthony... From ESPN writer...

But Dolan should also beware. Because what ails the Knicks is not something that more moves by Thursday's NBA trade deadline, or promoting defensive-minded assistant coach Mike Woodson is likely to fix unless the Knicks move one of their big two. Why? Because Amare Stoudemire can't seem to play better defense and Anthony won't. When they improve or are merely split up, the Knicks' team defense will improve too.

But regardless of whether D'Antoni stays or goes, there's another fundamental problem here, and increasingly it's the biggest elephant in the room involving Anthony.

Is he really a winning basketball player? Or just a great talent?

Anthony needs to look around and take a cue from the other top players in the league and honestly compare how his approach stacks up to theirs.

Until Anthony does that, Jeremy Lin won't be the most overhyped Knick -- Anthony will be. He's kidding himself with this conceit that he's a top-five player in the NBA. He's a top-five talent. Big difference.

If he doesn't want to listen to media nitwits or even D'Antoni anymore, perhaps Anthony would be interested to know that was the great Magic Johnson who seemed to be fingering him Monday when Johnson noted on TV how a lot of the Knicks' latest acquisitions have said they wanted to come to New York for the fame and celebrity "but they didn't say they wanted to go play for the Knicks." Or that Kenny Smith, whose pedigree includes playing college ball for Dean Smith and winning two rings with the Houston Rockets, told ESPN New York 1050's Stephen A. Smith on Monday that Anthony needs to drop "that extra 15 pounds" he's carrying and quit being the "two or three second guy" who holds the ball too long as he figures out what to do, ruining the Knicks' offensive flow in the process.

That neatly explains how the Knicks often seem to rally and flourish when Anthony is not on the floor.

[cam1218]

I don't think Woodson is a horrible coach but I do not see how any Hawks fan can try to defend the guy. Does anybody remember the Milwaukee/Orlando playoffs? Or the memories of always getting swept out of the second round?It wasn't just us losing, it was all about how we lost and looked completely overmatched. His success in NY is because he has the leading scorer in the NBA. Remember the whole "this sh** works" deal? No offense is needed, just play good D and see what happens. And for the turnovers, when you tell your guys to dribble out the clock and shoot, you aren't going to see the ball go into their other teams hand.

[yungsta]

I dunno what is the point of arguing. No matter if you think he is a bad coach or a good coach it is clear as day he wasnt getting it done here and he had lost the team so he had to go. Simple as that.