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It's funny how people feel one way about the Hawks and an entirely different way about the Braves. The Hawks have the longest playoff streak in the Eastern conference and so many people wanted to "get off the treadmill! and "tank for the draft!" Meanwhile the Braves have won 2 playoff games in the last 10 years and some of those same people are furious about them rebuilding. The Braves lost 97 games last year and still had a better run differential than the team that had all the talented players we've traded. I was sad to see Heyward, Kimbrel, and Simmons go, but I don't miss those teams at all. I rather roll the dice on having the best farm system than sit through another year of painful mediocrity. 

That said, I would like to keep Freeman and Inciarte. We need to keep some ML players around.

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23 minutes ago, High5 said:

It's funny how people feel one way about the Hawks and an entirely different way about the Braves. The Hawks have the longest playoff streak in the Eastern conference and so many people wanted to "get off the treadmill! and "tank for the draft!" Meanwhile the Braves have won 2 playoff games in the last 10 years and some of those same people are furious about them rebuilding. The Braves lost 97 games last year and still had a better run differential than the team that had all the talented players we've traded. I was sad to see Heyward, Kimbrel, and Simmons go, but I don't miss those teams at all. I rather roll the dice on having the best farm system than sit through another year of painful mediocrity. 

That said, I would like to keep Freeman and Inciarte. We need to keep some ML players around.

To me it's apples and oranges.   They only started the rebuilding when they did and how they did because of the need to save money and pay for the new stadium.   We dumped fan favorites and young guys like Heyward, Gattis, Simmons, Kimbrel etc.   guys who weren't making that much money and some of them wouldn't be making big bucks for a few years.     There is no way the Braves do a gutting like this if they didn't need the money to fund Cobb.   So that's what i'm pissed about.   They made a conscious decision to not field a major league team for a few years because they needed the money and they don't really care about the turner field fans.    They think their 'core' fans in the burbs will be there for them when they build it (the team and the stadium).   

Second, high draft picks in the NBA are much more of a sure thing than in baseball so tanking at least has some sort of hope

Third, there is no salary cap in MLB so again it's about money.   In the nba you have to shed underperforming big salary teams because there is no other option no matter how much money you have.  

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14 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

To me it's apples and oranges.   They only started the rebuilding when they did and how they did because of the need to save money and pay for the new stadium.   We dumped fan favorites and young guys like Heyward, Gattis, Simmons, Kimbrel etc.   guys who weren't making that much money and some of them wouldn't be making big bucks for a few years.     There is no way the Braves do a gutting like this if they didn't need the money to fund Cobb.   So that's what i'm pissed about.   They made a conscious decision to not field a major league team for a few years because they needed the money and they don't really care about the turner field fans.    They think their 'core' fans in the burbs will be there for them when they build it (the team and the stadium).   

Second, high draft picks in the NBA are much more of a sure thing than in baseball so tanking at least has some sort of hope

Third, there is no salary cap in MLB so again it's about money.   In the nba you have to shed underperforming big salary teams because there is no other option no matter how much money you have.  

This so thoroughly answered the other guy that  I don't have much to add. Compare the NBA and the Hawks to the Braves is literally apples and oranges. There's a reason baseball has like, what, 40 round drafts plus international slots. A superstar in the NBA is much more likely to be drafted in the first round than in baseball.

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Totally agree that baseball prospects are much less predictable than NBA prospects.  That said, trading for unproven minor league players can pay off in MLB.  Think John Smoltz for an example.  

The #1 overall slot has a pretty good payoff in recent years in MLB as well.  It is more similar to the NBA draft track record.

Here are the 10 picks culminating in the 2012 draft:

Washouts:  (20%)

Matt Bush, Tim Beckam

Mediocre Major Leaguer:  (10%)

Luke Hochevar

Plus Major Leaguer: (10%)

Delmon Young (top 10 MVP votes in 2010, ALCS MVP 2012)

All-Star: (20%)

Stephen Strasburg, Gerrit Cole

Cy-Young/MVP Candidate: (30%)

David Price, Bryce Harper, Carlos Correa (my personal judgment)

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28 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

To me it's apples and oranges.   They only started the rebuilding when they did and how they did because of the need to save money and pay for the new stadium.   We dumped fan favorites and young guys like Heyward, Gattis, Simmons, Kimbrel etc.   guys who weren't making that much money and some of them wouldn't be making big bucks for a few years.     There is no way the Braves do a gutting like this if they didn't need the money to fund Cobb.   So that's what i'm pissed about.   They made a conscious decision to not field a major league team for a few years because they needed the money and they don't really care about the turner field fans.    They think their 'core' fans in the burbs will be there for them when they build it (the team and the stadium).   

Second, high draft picks in the NBA are much more of a sure thing than in baseball so tanking at least has some sort of hope

Third, there is no salary cap in MLB so again it's about money.   In the nba you have to shed underperforming big salary teams because there is no other option no matter how much money you have.  

It's not really a matter of a NBA draft pick being more likely to succeed. It's the sentiment about the two teams. The Hawks being less than a contender was such a crime and people are still upset about the direction the team is heading, but the Braves were supposed to stay on their path? It just doesn't make sense to me. 

Also, I don't agree that the stadium is the reason for the rebuild. The team HAD to rebuild. The Uggla, BJ, and Johnson contracts were all killers. Kimbrel was making a bunch of money to close games for a team under .500. Heyward was a year away from signing a contract in the neighborhood of $200mil and Upton's contract won't be too much lighter. It was impossible to continue with that group and why would anyone want to? Gattis was a nice story, but he's basically Jeff Francoeur with more power and less defense. Simmons was the toughest pill to swallow from a baseball standpoint, especially since the return was more pitching prospects, but now we have Swanson who projects to be a better overall player. That takes a lot of the sting out of it.

And, sure, I wish we had deeper pockets to work with, but that has been a problem for years. Long before the new stadium was ever announced. 

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I definitely think the stadium is impacting the total fire sale approach the team is taking.  They want the cupboard stocked for the new stadium opening, figuring they can get a boost from the opening and then sustain it with the MiLB talent we are getting.  I don't think that we would be going the Houston/Washington rebuilt route if not for the stadium issue.  In terms of deep pockets, I agree that isn't a pure stadium issue.  We are more hampered by our sub-market television deal than anything else.

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I don't see how the new stadium could NOT be the driving force behind this type of overhaul.  If they had $600 million just lying around then they were seriously running the team on the cheap.    I understand the need to rebuild but in my mind you hang on to as much of the young, inexpensive talent that you can.  Obviously you have to trade something but this is scorched earth.      But the truth is i'm just pissed off at the move and more than that the arrogance of those running the team and the indifference to the team's history and importance to the city.   I'll spare everyone another tirade about it.  

 

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23 minutes ago, AHF said:

I definitely think the stadium is impacting the total fire sale approach the team is taking.  They want the cupboard stocked for the new stadium opening, figuring they can get a boost from the opening and then sustain it with the MiLB talent we are getting.  I don't think that we would be going the Houston/Washington rebuilt route if not for the stadium issue.  In terms of deep pockets, I agree that isn't a pure stadium issue.  We are more hampered by our sub-market television deal than anything else.

I'm sure the stadium is helping them make certain decisions, but rebuilding was the only option IMO, stadium or no stadium. Some half-assed retooling wouldn't have made anyone happy. Which is why the Olivera trade is the worst move they've made at this point. 30-year-old rookies with injury concerns don't exactly fit into a rebuilding plan. 

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27 minutes ago, High5 said:

Which is why the Olivera trade is the worst move they've made at this point. 30-year-old rookies with injury concerns don't exactly fit into a rebuilding plan. 

That was a huge head scratcher.

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http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14343750/chicago-cubs-add-offseason-haul-agreeing-jason-heyward

Heyward signs for $184 million but as the article points out he's one of the most valuable all around players in baseball.   I sure hope one of these prospects evolves into a 5 tool player that we can pay $200 million 5 years from now.  

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54 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/14343750/chicago-cubs-add-offseason-haul-agreeing-jason-heyward

Heyward signs for $184 million but as the article points out he's one of the most valuable all around players in baseball.   I sure hope one of these prospects evolves into a 5 tool player that we can pay $200 million 5 years from now.  

All of Heyward's WAR numbers come from his corner outfield defense.  I am highly skeptical that Chicago will be happy with that deal unless he really steps it up at the plate.

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24 minutes ago, AHF said:

All of Heyward's WAR numbers come from his corner outfield defense.  I am highly skeptical that Chicago will be happy with that deal unless he really steps it up at the plate.

I'd say the encouraging part is he batted almost .300 which is a major improvement for him.  

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I think we totally fleeced the DBacks in this trade. Dansby Swanson will be the next superstar for the Braves (some say he will be on the level of Chipper Jones), Blair has the chance to become a solid #2 or #3 pitcher for us as well, and Inciarte will become the best defensive CF that we've had since Michael Bourn's first stint with the Braves. I think after this trade, the foundation is there for us to become championship contenders for years and years to come by the time 2018 rolls around. Right now we have the #3 pick in the MLB Draft, we are projected to be one of the biggest spenders in the IFA Market next year, and the revenue that the Braves will receive from the new ballpark should help us add more major league talent to help this team win a championship. It's going to be a rough 1-2 years for Braves' fans, but it will sure be worth it at the end.

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I suspect the Braves are still trying hard to get Jorge Solar from the Cubs. It might be for Teheran but the Cubs may want more. the good thing is both guys are coming off sub-par years. What scares me is that the Cubs may also get Ender in the deal.

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15 minutes ago, frosgrim said:

I suspect the Braves are still trying hard to get Jorge Solar from the Cubs. It might be for Teheran but the Cubs may want more. the good thing is both guys are coming off sub-par years. What scares me is that the Cubs may also get Ender in the deal.

I want Soler on the Braves badly. A young 23 year old Cuban who has a very bright future. I'd give up Teheran for Soler but don't throw Ender on the deal if possible.

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18 minutes ago, Spud2Nique said:

I want Soler on the Braves badly. A young 23 year old Cuban who has a very bright future. I'd give up Teheran for Soler but don't throw Ender on the deal if possible.

Ender and Teheran for just Soler is an overpay unless Teheran has some injury issue we don't know about.

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On December 14, 2015 at 9:36:12 AM, AHF said:

Ender and Teheran for just Soler is an overpay unless Teheran has some injury issue we don't know about.

That's why I said don't throw Ender in the deal.....

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On December 14, 2015 at 9:36:12 AM, AHF said:

Ender and Teheran for just Soler is an overpay unless Teheran has some injury issue we don't know about.

That's why I said don't throw Ender in the deal.....

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On December 14, 2015 at 9:36:12 AM, AHF said:

Ender and Teheran for just Soler is an overpay unless Teheran has some injury issue we don't know about.

That's why I said don't throw Ender in the deal.....

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