Zach Lowe was not a fan of the Hawks summer moves

[NBASupes]

Good article

[mrhonline]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

@mrhonlineCan you  explain further? How does it affect him and the Hawks?

I won't pretend that I completely understand the over-36 rule, but here's the short answer from Larry Coon:

Quote

the Over-36 rule completely eliminates the advantage of adding the additional year onto the contract

The Hawks' offer would be limited to four seasons, but so would any other teams'. This means the Hawks' offer would be limited to somewhere between $5-10M more over the course of a four-year max contract than other (presumably better) teams'.  He'd have to WANT to stay in Atlanta.

BTW, LeBron will be directly affected by this next year (same age as Millsap), so it might come up in the CBA negotiations...

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Good article

*gasp* Whut, you like an anti-Howard, pro-Al piece? ...

Just messin' with you, Supers.  Don't tase me, bro.

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Bankingitbig said:

It didn't matter what we paid Al Horford.. His cap hold was $18M for this coming season. It didn't matter what we paid Al Horford, it was only going to impact our salary cap by $18M. We could have paid him the full 5-year MAX and it still would have only had an $18M impact on the salary. We had his full Bird rights.

Again... This is why none of the stuff that unfolded during the offseason makes sense.

This is absolutely incorrect.  The cap hold is only a place holder, the moment Al received a new contract the amount of that contract would replace that cap hold thus 18 mil pops up to 25 mil sitting on the cap.

 

There's nothing confusing here: 

 

The Hawks approached Al about resigning, he said he wants to shop around.

The Hawks said they don't want to be holding the bag waiting on Al to make a decision so they went out signed/re-signed their players.

The Hawks came back to Al, said they still could resign him and would have the option of having future assets.

Al said naw.

The Hawks said fine, we already had a contingency in place from the beginning.  Thank you for your services.

Al said but you're supposed to chase after me when I walk away.

The Hawks said naw, we good.

The end.

 

That anyone would think any reasonable front office would lay all their eggs in one basket with no plan A-Z is the most confusing.  This isn't Rick Pitino going Tim Duncan or bust or the Wizards going KD or bust.  The Hawks had a plan to remain competitive, they saw an opportunity to also remain competitive and have potential for the future, when the latter plan fell through they remained satisfied that they could still remain competitive.

 

 

[mrhonline]

19 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

The cap hold is only a place holder, the moment Al received a new contract the amount of that contract would replace that cap hold thus 18 mil pops up to 25 mil sitting on the cap.

Yes, but the Hawks were always going to sign Al last because his cap hold was for less than what he was gonna make in his first season AND was going to take them over the cap. So, in that sense, it really didn't matter whether Al made $18M in his first season or $26M.

[Diesel]

My only concern for our team is Paul Millsap.   I like the Howard Signing.  I'm cool with Al going to Boston... solves a decade long logjam.   Now, we have a C.. one we were supposed to have in 2004.  I think now he's ready.  I just hope Millsap is not put off by what we were about to do. 

 

[ATLSmith]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

My only concern for our team is Paul Millsap.   I like the Howard Signing.  I'm cool with Al going to Boston... solves a decade long logjam.   Now, we have a C.. one we were supposed to have in 2004.  I think now he's ready.  I just hope Millsap is not put off by what we were about to do. 

I hear ya.  Sap is probably a bit hurt but he's a bigger man than that.  Also, winning heals a lot of wounds.

[benhillboy]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

My only concern for our team is Paul Millsap.   I like the Howard Signing.  I'm cool with Al going to Boston... solves a decade long logjam.   Now, we have a C.. one we were supposed to have in 2004.  I think now he's ready.  I just hope Millsap is not put off by what we were about to do. 

 

Sap's a pro.  The checks still clearing, and getting fatter.  He ain't sweating the cold side of the business.

I'm sure this is a dumb question, but it's a forgone conclusion he's going to turn down his player option in 17-18 because the cap jumps again, right?  Is there any possibility he'd accept?  

I actually just learned he signed for 3 years and not 2 by checking The Reference.  This is the last time I talk contracts I promise.

Edited July 7, 2016 by benhillboy

[mrhonline]

On Over-36 stuff, thank goodness hawksfanatic is still out there in the Twitterverse to deal with these nuances:

https://twitter.com/atlhawksfanatic

Edited July 7, 2016 by mrhonline
Mistaken Identity! Where's Scooby-Doo?

[AUhawksfan]

26 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Sap's a pro.  The checks still clearing, and getting fatter.  He ain't sweating the cold side of the business.

I'm sure this is a dumb question, but it's a forgone conclusion he's going to turn down his player option in 17-18 because the cap jumps again, right?  Is there any possibility he'd accept?  

I actually just learned he signed for 3 years and not 2 by checking The Reference.  This is the last time I talk contracts I promise.

Yeah I was worried about Sap but at the end of the day the guy has character, he's going to go about his business and do what he does.

Whether or not that will affect him coming back or taking less to stay with us may be a different story though.....

[cam1218]

Regarding Sap being worried about the rumors, I remember all of the players potentially being shopped around before the trade deadline last year. He's been through it before and understands it's just a business. The Hawks want him here and he wants to be here, so it will all be good.

[MaceCase]

Just now, mrhonline said:

Yes, but the Hawks were always going to sign Al last because his cap hold was for less than what he was gonna make in his first season AND was going to take them over the cap. So, in that sense, it really didn't matter whether Al made $18M in his first season or $26M.

I'm well aware of that but that's not how I read the post I quoted, it seemed to suggest that the $18mil would sit in perpetuity on the Hawks' salary cap rather than any actual dollar amount.  I did clear up for both posters that cap ramifications had little to do with Horford leaving regardless in the succession of likely events that I detailed in the rest of my post.

The Hawks likely had a set dollar amount that they felt comfortable offering Horford.  They likely felt that they could make some concessions on that figure not particularly based on Horford's value to them but because they could additionally attain assets/depth through a Sap trade.  Horford kept pushing the envelope but Hawks would not budge from their final offer and felt confident in the team framework that they already had.

In keeping with the Spursian philosophy and judging by the other signings by the Hawks through both Ferry and BudCox , it would appear that they much prefer to have below market "value" contracts to preserve flexibility (I won't even touch on the potential lower than originally projected 2017 cap ramifications as that's neither here or there) or perhaps for purely aesthetically pleasing reasons.  In either case they were/are unlikely to consider a 5 year max for Sap with or without the over 36 rule lest, as with Al, they find a suitable contingency plan to supplement that investment.

[MaceCase]

Just now, mrhonline said:

On Over-36 stuff, thank goodness AHF is still out there in the Twitterverse to deal with these nuances:

https://twitter.com/atlhawksfanatic

I'm sure AHF would be flattered by the praise......'Fanatic might consider a return solely to post a talking butt gif though.

 

[mrhonline]

Ha!  Never noticed that before.  Could they be the same person?  Ever seen them post at the same time?

[MaceCase]

That would be seriously disturbing given the depth of the arguments that they engaged in with each other.  Talking old hobo yelling at himself in a crowded bus disturbing...

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, Diesel said:

My only concern for our team is Paul Millsap.   I like the Howard Signing.  I'm cool with Al going to Boston... solves a decade long logjam.   Now, we have a C.. one we were supposed to have in 2004.  I think now he's ready.  I just hope Millsap is not put off by what we were about to do. 

 

Millsap is usually hanging out at Summer League - we'll see if he's there this time.

[Bankingitbig]

1 hour ago, MaceCase said:

This is absolutely incorrect.  The cap hold is only a place holder, the moment Al received a new contract the amount of that contract would replace that cap hold thus 18 mil pops up to 25 mil sitting on the cap.

 

There's nothing confusing here: 

 

The Hawks approached Al about resigning, he said he wants to shop around.

The Hawks said they don't want to be holding the bag waiting on Al to make a decision so they went out signed/re-signed their players.

The Hawks came back to Al, said they still could resign him and would have the option of having future assets.

Al said naw.

The Hawks said fine, we already had a contingency in place from the beginning.  Thank you for your services.

Al said but you're supposed to chase after me when I walk away.

The Hawks said naw, we good.

The end.

 

That anyone would think any reasonable front office would lay all their eggs in one basket with no plan A-Z is the most confusing.  This isn't Rick Pitino going Tim Duncan or bust or the Wizards going KD or bust.  The Hawks had a plan to remain competitive, they saw an opportunity to also remain competitive and have potential for the future, when the latter plan fell through they remained satisfied that they could still remain competitive.

 

 

The cap stuff is absolutely correct. The cap hold is  place holder for this year in terms of salary cap. Any starting salary over that cap hold that Horford signs only impacts us in terms of paying the tax. The story is nice and all, but it doesn't include the fact that we shopped Millsap for mysterious reasons at about the same time as we were negotiating with Horford. If their plan was to play hard ball with Horford and not sign him, then why were they shopping Millsap?

[HawkItus]

14 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

I'm well aware of that but that's not how I read the post I quoted, it seemed to suggest that the $18mil would sit in perpetuity on the Hawks' salary cap rather than any actual dollar amount.  I did clear up for both posters that cap ramifications had little to do with Horford leaving regardless in the succession of likely events that I detailed in the rest of my post.

The Hawks likely had a set dollar amount that they felt comfortable offering Horford.  They likely felt that they could make some concessions on that figure not particularly based on Horford's value to them but because they could additionally attain assets/depth through a Sap trade.  Horford kept pushing the envelope but Hawks would not budge from their final offer and felt confident in the team framework that they already had.

In keeping with the Spursian philosophy and judging by the other signings by the Hawks through both Ferry and BudCox , it would appear that they much prefer to have below market "value" contracts to preserve flexibility (I won't even touch on the potential lower than originally projected 2017 cap ramifications as that's neither here or there) or perhaps for purely aesthetically pleasing reasons.  In either case they were/are unlikely to consider a 5 year max for Sap with or without the over 36 rule lest, as with Al, they find a suitable contingency plan to supplement that investment.

Hawks motto= Never pay retail

[MaceCase]

Just now, Bankingitbig said:

The cap stuff is absolutely correct. The cap hold is  place holder for this year in terms of salary cap. Any starting salary over that cap hold that Horford signs only impacts us in terms of paying the tax. The story is nice and all, but it doesn't include the fact that we shopped Millsap for mysterious reasons at about the same time as we were negotiating with Horford. If their plan was to play hard ball with Horford and not sign him, then why were they shopping Millsap?

Reread the story, it's very illuminating.  They didn't shop Sap for "mysterious reasons", they shopped him specifically as the manner to be able to re-sign Al. 

If you didn't notice, they already had agreed to deals with Dwight and Bazemore on Friday, it would have been moot to re-engage in a contract talk with Al on Saturday without a potential trade because they had already allocated the majority of their cap space, including Al's cap hold, to both Bazemore and Dwight.

 

So again, they had the option to replace Al and they also had the option to retain Al.  They had options....they were not going to concede in one direction because they had leverage.

[AHF]

The validity I see in the article is the same obvious truth all of us saw as this played out:

Having Millsap, Horford and Howard is better than having just Millsap and Howard.  Duh.  

If the decision was really over 4-5M then that does seem a bit crazy when looking at it through the lens of the window of contention for the vets on this team but I think it is more likely that Horford simply desired to leave (see the deal with his agent, the different in contract offers, and other activity) which means that Atlanta had a good plan in place (either to keep Horf and Howard and deal Sap for pieces or to jettison Splitter et al to make room for all three)  and a reasonable fallback (where we sit today).  Some wheel spinning happening over the course of the article.