Some early thoughts on Schröder

[capstone21]

15 minutes ago, DS17Fanboy said:

What does "not getting others involved" even mean? Back it up with something. And Dennis is a scoring point-guard if you like it or not. Ur pretty stringent there all on your own. Your demands will not be meat. Deal with it.

...not getting others involved ... he is doing a lot of standing around pounding the ball ... he is not keeping the movement going ... the ball is moving around much better when he has been on the bench.

He is also doing a lot of ill-advised driving into the crowd when there are guys open and taking bad shots.  This is what I am talking about.  Its not that I don't want him to score but not at the of expense of the rest of the team.  He is not the sixth man that comes in as a spark plug ... he has new responsiblity by getting the keys to the offense ... the problem is he has not embraced that role yet.

 

[rd79]

Our team looks good if everbody is moving and setting screens. That's how lanes and holes in the defense are created. Sometimes there is nobody moving on the floor and then Dennis has to choose between a difficult drive, a risky pass or a (often late shot clock) shot. And then he looks bad sometimes, but it's not his fault every time. If Howard keeps standing still in the paint instead of setting a screen to get a open look he will be punished for 3 sec violation more often.

Nevertheless, one area where Dennis should improve is moving without the ball. 

[Lurker]

Until he shows his jumper is something that can be trusted, it's going to be hard for him to play PNR with Dwight when Dwight shows that he wants to come out as they're going to pack the paint.

[macdaddy]

I mean is shot chart so far is pretty good.   He hasn't been perfect but so far i've got few issues with Dennis.

[Guest]

Question. On the play where Dwight camped out in the paint for 5 seconds and got mad at Dennis for not throwing him the rock.

 

My question is, whose fault is that? I think the player posting should be ready to move out of the paint quicker and not be completely married to finishing the play in the paint. Kind of post for 2 or 3 seconds then flash to the next spot or set a screen for another player. The player (Dwight) cannot expect the point (Dennis) to be able to immediately pass him the ball when Dennis has to look at 3 other players.

 

At the same time, if Bud draws up the play as it was, Dennis needs to get the ball in much quicker and stop hesitating.

 

I can actually see it from both points of view. I just want to know, when you break it down, whose responsible for that error? 

 

I just from my knowledge over the years, I've learned that it's mainly on the point guard to facilitate the offense and get everyone in the right spot. This certain play however, I might put some blame on both players.

[Watchman]

7 hours ago, Ropadope said:

Looked like D8 was extremely upset with Dennis on that 3 second call. He had position and Dennis didn't recognize him until too late.

I have really been shocked to see how frequently Dennis ignores Dwight on offense.   Dwight should be scoring much more, just on alley-oops alone.  Offense is stagnant with Dennis at the point.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Watchman

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Watchman said:

I have really been shocked to see how frequently Dennis ignores Dwight on offense.   Dwight should be scoring much more, just on alley-oops alone.  Offense is stagnant with Dennis at the point.

Teams are playing defense to stop that play.  Dennis forced that play in game 1 and had a bunch of turnovers.

[gonzo]

vor 6 Stunden, DS17Fanboy sagte:

Oh stop it. Delaney brought them back in to the game with Lawson and Temple abusing him. Delaney has a very polished offensive game and his co-team mates are very allround guys who it is easier to play with. Dennis needs to work on that PnR game with Howard & Co and the work is done during regular season basketball.  So what happens are miscues and waiting for guys to move, then getting there to late or not at all, ending up taking a bad shot yourself etc. Thats gonna not look "flowing" etc, but that is what working on things is...his game with Korver and Millsap is very productive.

What matters much more as a team-leader is reckognizing where the game is at, to go familiar routes when needs be, and that is what Dennis did again last night, doubling the lead in the 4th for instance. Dennis is actually a very smart player and a true starting PG.

Oh stop it? 

Wow i said give him 20 games but hell alright.  :)

well on a more serious note, we shouldnt act like dennis has never lead a team before. He played really good with the highly talented german squad in the euros which was at home. I think there has been more pressure on him there than in a rs game. But if you look at zhe bottom line that team failed. That is by no means dennises fault, but he learned a lot from it. Somehow he had a good surge in that nba season following the tournament. I would have expected him to have an even bigger surge this time around. But so faar it doesnt look that way. Btw i know dennis is supposed to be a good defender, but i dont really see that. He gets pushed around and appears to not be doing much. I am confident that i just dont understand enough about the game to realize his greatness on d. If someone could enlighten me, pls. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Spud2Nique said:

Dennis will be fine. I think he's still adjusting to being a starter rather than an energy guy off the bench. This seems to be messing with him a bit early on but he will adjust. He does need to try and feed the post a bit quicker when Dwight or whomever is setting up camp in the paint. Lol.

That's just not Dennis though.  Kyle missed a pass to Dwight when he had Boogie sealed nearly under the basket.  Kyle faked the throw, reset then actually threw it, by then it was too late...deflection by Boogie.

It's all in the timing and players learning what's available when.  It's a process.

 

[kurupt]

vor 2 Stunden, JayBirdHawk sagte:

That's just not Dennis though.  Kyle missed a pass to Dwight when he had Boogie sealed nearly under the basket.  Kyle faked the throw, reset then actually threw it, by then it was too late...deflection by Boogie.

It's all in the timing and players learning what's available when.  It's a process.

Exactly this.

On the play were Dennis "missed" Howard for the 3 second call (which was kinda quick imo) was a bit like that. Dennis saw Dwight, thought about the pass and decided against it, because (at least from his perspective)  Dwight did not have his opponent completely sealed. "Old Dennis" would have made that pass and hoped Dwight would get it - potentially commiting a TO. This time he looked for another pass (which wasn't there) and then returned to Dwight, who now had selaed his defender completely. It was just a tad late.

I am much more comfortable with the "safe" option here, especially since this will work better the more they play together. Forcing plays, that (you think) aren't there,  just leads to turnovers.

As for the P&R-plays and "missing" alley-hoops: as long as Dwight always just slips screens and does it as early as he does right now , there won't be a lot of succesful P&Rs with him. Dennis opponent is hardly ever inhibited at all by Dwights "screen" and Howards man does not even have the chance(!) to come out far enough to be beat by Dennis' drive. I thiunk this wil lwork better with time, too.

Edited November 1, 2016 by kurupt

[SalvorMallow]

Here is a postgame interview with Dennis talking about where he thinks the team can get better.  He specifically addresses the 1-5 PnR.  Great to know that Dennis sees that as the future of the offense.

[Guest]

Hawks needed a spark, Schröder brings a blowtorch

Quote

The Hawks are 3-0, and if nobody is stocking up on confetti yet it’s because they still have 79 games left and they’ve played the Wizards, Sixers and Kings. Actually, 13 of their first 19 games come against teams that didn’t make the playoffs last season — so feast, young men, and we’ll check back sometime after all the leaves fall.

But it’s worth noting, even at this early juncture, that Dennis Schröder isn’t popping any springs yet. The Hawks’ new starting point guard, who’s enormously talented but also occasionally resembles a pingpong ball in a wind tunnel, has played under control for the most part, and he hasn’t completely driven teammates crazy.

“Dennis has a bit of an edge to him, and he’s always going to be a bit of a wild card,” Kyle Korver said Tuesday. “His talent is so high that there are going to be nights when he’s just amazing. And there are going to be some nights when he’s … still learning.” (Korver has a Ph.D in diplomacy.)

Schröder was a gamble worth taking. His fire burns hot. It’s better that a team keeps the player whose flames sometimes get a little out of control than it is to try to coax a spark out of the guy who seems like a wet book of matches (see: Jeff Teague). Ouch!!

Schröder can be an incredible annoyance to opposing players. He also gets on the nerves of his own teammates and coaches, particularly the Hawks’ Mike Budenholzer, who prefers cyborgs.

+

Asked if he was even a little amused at Schröder getting under the skin of DeMarcus Cousins during a win over Sacramento on Monday night, Budenholzer said, “No. I’m not amused.

“I just don’t really play that game or think that way. But generally speaking I probably have to come a little bit to Dennis, and Dennis has to come a little bit to me.”

But it says something that a coach like Budenholzer made the decision to commit to Schröder long term with a four-year extension. He wouldn’t tender such a deal if he didn’t believe in Schröder’s future.

“Even though I would like him to be more staid and calm and composed, that edge can be a positive for us,” Budenholzer said. “We’ve talked about our team being a little more edgy.”

There is no dull side to Schröder. We saw it in the playoffs last year when he annoyed Boston’s Isaiah Thomas to the point that Thomas smacked Schröder across the head, touching off a scuffle. We saw it again Monday when Schröder, like a constant gnat with his words or actions, poked at Cousins. The Kings’ center committed an offensive foul against Schröder, melted down with three fouls and two turnovers down the stretch and then after the game shoved Schröder in the back.

Schröder smiled when asked about Cousins.

“That’s the reason we put pressure on him, to try to get him out of his game,” he said. “He got an offensive foul, he swung his arm at me. I’m just competing, but he got mad. Coach didn’t like that I reacted. But he hit me and then I slapped him back. So he got mad again.”

There’s some history there. Schröder was suspended one game his rookie season for hitting Cousins in the groin. YouTube has the ugly evidence. Schröder said the contact was not intentional, that he was merely trying to fight through a screen.

“That one was kind of bad-looking. But I don’t do dirty plays because I don’t want players to do that to me.”

There were too many moments in too many games last year when the Hawks seemed to flat line. The loss of DeMarre Carroll likely played a role in that. But Schröder plays with no fear. What remains to be scene (really, c'mon man) is if he play under control, as his position mandates. Can he distribute the ball and make players around him better? Can he lead?

He also needs to improve his jump shooting, so it was encouraging to see him stay after practice Tuesday working with shooting coach Ben Sullivan.

“I want to take my work ethic to the next level and stay after practice or sometimes even come back at night and just work with the shooting coach to get better,” Schröder said. “Being the starter, everybody is looking at you. You have to set the tone.”

So yes: He’s trying to break a lifetime of tendencies. He admits he still talks a lot in practice and irritates teammates, but said, “I’m trying to get them ready for the game.”

His style of play didn’t go over well as a youth in Germany.

“They didn’t like me,” he said. “They never had a player like this in Germany, just competing all the time. They said I’m a different person. They felt like I wasn’t German.”

This was a well-timed import. The Hawks needed a new look in the backcourt, and Korver said Schröder came into the NBA at the right time.

“Dennis is one of those guys where if you’re on the other team you don’t like him very much,” he said. “Luckily, he’s protected by rules now. He’s probably not going to get flattened like in the old days. Guys are too afraid of losing that check.

http://www.myajc.com/news/sports/basketball/hawks-needed-a-spark-Schröder-brings-a-blowtorch/ns2kk/

[DS17Fanboy]

vor 7 Stunden, capstone21 sagte:

...not getting others involved ... he is doing a lot of standing around pounding the ball ... he is not keeping the movement going ... the ball is moving around much better when he has been on the bench.

He is also doing a lot of ill-advised driving into the crowd when there are guys open and taking bad shots.  This is what I am talking about.  Its not that I don't want him to score but not at the of expense of the rest of the team.  He is not the sixth man that comes in as a spark plug ... he has new responsiblity by getting the keys to the offense ... the problem is he has not embraced that role yet.

 

The issue that have with posts like yours is that it is unwarrented critisism to put everything in such general terms. Delany has one alley-hoop and suddenly he's "the expert on Dwight". Dennis on two consecutive plays is waiting on Kyle to get past a screen in the paint two games ago and suddenly he's "just standing around all the time"(while in the second it got Embiid his 4th foul but nvm...). Thats the only time I seen him just standing around.

Dennis his game is all about extraordinary speed and it causes all sorts of direct and indirect problems for opposing teams and those plays are just more turnover-prone and bound to get u in more difficult spots.  That comes with the territory. Dude has to still learn a few learnable things and some might be better at it. Maybe Teague is/whas, but I see him making far more headscratching drives lately. The sort of actions you speak about have far more to do with PnR's not working out and when ur deep in the paint it is hard to get out of the situation, so you end up finishing one way or the other.

Also how many times have those been rebounded by Dwight, because he usualyswaits till he gets back in rebounding position(which is actually quality of Dennis).

And also, Dennis has a truckload of hockey assists to open shooters with Millsap in the mids, tacking over that role from Horford. Does Dennis his play with Millsap, Korver, Baze and Moose look bad to you?

 

 

 

Dennis is not standing around

[DS17Fanboy]

vor 3 Stunden, gonzo sagte:

Oh stop it? 

Wow i said give him 20 games but hell alright.  :)

well on a more serious note, we shouldnt act like dennis has never lead a team before. He played really good with the highly talented german squad in the euros which was at home. I think there has been more pressure on him there than in a rs game. But if you look at zhe bottom line that team failed. That is by no means dennises fault, but he learned a lot from it. Somehow he had a good surge in that nba season following the tournament. I would have expected him to have an even bigger surge this time around. But so faar it doesnt look that way. Btw i know dennis is supposed to be a good defender, but i dont really see that. He gets pushed around and appears to not be doing much. I am confident that i just dont understand enough about the game to realize his greatness on d. If someone could enlighten me, pls. 

1. He doesnt gamble and stays marked on his man for most of the time(Glove like, but a poor mans version still).

2. He hustles whenever, going after loose balls.

3. He has a elite natural instinct of whats moving behind him. Screeners, cutters, or shooters in the courner.

4. He hast elite cat like motions that are able to avoid screens and usualy he goes over them.

5. He has by now an more often than not elite feel for rotations.

6. He plays without significant fouling.

This sort of "being pushed around" stuff, is all about a situation with Temple getting in the paint by force and finishing. Well, those are just very obvious situations, that you cant miss watching a game, but how many of those are there? B-ball is a game about the long-run, not a basket or two.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, gonzo said:

Oh stop it? 

Wow i said give him 20 games but hell alright.  :)

well on a more serious note, we shouldnt act like dennis has never lead a team before. He played really good with the highly talented german squad in the euros which was at home. I think there has been more pressure on him there than in a rs game. But if you look at zhe bottom line that team failed. That is by no means dennises fault, but he learned a lot from it. Somehow he had a good surge in that nba season following the tournament. I would have expected him to have an even bigger surge this time around. But so faar it doesnt look that way. Btw i know dennis is supposed to be a good defender, but i dont really see that. He gets pushed around and appears to not be doing much. I am confident that i just dont understand enough about the game to realize his greatness on d. If someone could enlighten me, pls. 

Dennis is a good defender.  He pressures the ball,  fights through screens, stays in front of his man. Where he gets lost sometimes is team defense when he looks to help and loses his man.

If you think Dennis appears to not be doing much - I can't help you there. 

[Atlantaholic]

Dennis has played very well overall, and his best basketball is certainly to come. Nothing to worry about on that front IMO... both him and Howard have yet to hit their stride on offense and we are still top 10 in offensive efficiency, which is pretty amazing. Everyone assumed we would need both Schro and Howard to play like world beaters on that end to be effective, and that hasn't at all been the case. Once both those guys get going, I can only imagine how good we'll look. 

[gonzo]

Well i see him getting caught up in screens more often than others, might be bc i pay more attention to him than to the other guys. Guess we will see when he plays the elite pgs of the nba soon. I just wish the offense would staart like a triangle with dennis immediatly passing at the start 95% of the time and not checking the situatuin for 4-7 seconds.

[NBASupes]

I think Dennis is playing well. Especially considering his increased minutes and responsibilities. He has some issues but most is experience related.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, gonzo said:

Well i see him getting caught up in screens more often than others, might be bc i pay more attention to him than to the other guys. Guess we will see when he plays the elite pgs of the nba soon. I just wish the offense would staart like a triangle with dennis immediatly passing at the start 95% of the time and not checking the situatuin for 4-7 seconds.

Not even remotely true. Not that it doesn't happen but he still fights through them.  If you want to see a player get hung up on a screen and not fight  - see Jeff Teague.

[benhillboy]

I was led to believe his court vision was better than it  really is coming from the German team.  Luckily Bud's system doesn't call for PGs to create plays any more than any other position.

Dennis is a work in progress, but I ride or die with him.  He's still maturing everyday, I'll take the perceived errors in Xs and Os with his ability to dominate with quickness and excellent endurance in the 4th quarter.

@DS17Fanboy'S breakdown of his defensive profile was spot on.  He inexplicably gets caught flat-footed on drives after the ball swings sides, though.  

I can accept bull-headed guards trying to muscle him and the chances that help will force a turnover.  But with his lateral quickness and arm length, straight-line drives should be very scarce.  Like less than the charges he draws (had he drawn any this season yet?)

Edited November 2, 2016 by benhillboy