Kyle Korver discussion

[RedDawg#8]

Plus, everyone holding out for Kyle to have his huge scoring game which he does from time to time, well it is just as likely that Tim and Thabo will do the same thing and randomly put up 20 or so this year too. 

The "we have no other options" argument needs to be buried once and for all. The Atlanta Hawks are bigger than ANY ONE player and that includes Kyle Korver. Same went for Al, same for Teague, same for Joe and Josh. No single player will prevent us from winning games. That's the beauty of never having a superstar. Nobody really matters that much to our success. We just end up finding different ways to win with different kinds of players. 

[MaceCase]

@RedDawg#8 They are playing above their heads because they've never done this before....ever.   Are they going to completely crater?  Not necessarily but that doesn't dispell that their production isn't an outlier especially in the case of Thabo.  Kyle even in an off year was producing league leading plus/minus and gravity, the expectancy isn't that he's going to have a huge scoring output it's that teams consistently guard him to prevent that.  And if you're making the argument that "the team is bigger than any one player!" hows that jive with the argument of the thread that Kyle is somehow single handedly holding the team back?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MaceCase said:

Why?! Isn't having an agenda enough?

What makes this even more funny is the fact that you quoted @JayBirdHawk who's the queen of hidden agendas.

[Guest]

Just now, kg01 said:

What makes this even more funny is the fact that you quoted @JayBirdHawk who's the queen of hidden agendas.

This is an agenda free zone.

[nathan2331]

I think we should try and make a trade somewhere to get a better starter at SF and move Bazemore to SG. Thabo and Jr. being equal to Korver in effectiveness isn't an entirely good thing because you can make the case that all 3 should be coming off the bench.

I know it's been discussed plenty before but Splitter should go if he can net us a bona-fide SF. Gordon Hayward would be ideal, but I think Danilo Gallinari or Rudy Gay would be attainable if we'd be willing to part with some draft picks and able to get a third team involved.

[Guest]

My three-team trade proposal ...

We send Splitter and Scott to Golden State (they need a defensive center).

They send us Zaza and they send Iguodala to Sacramento (the Kings get a replacement for Rudy Gay, after they send him to us, and some needed defense and veteran presence).

We send THjr to Sacramento (Kings need a shooting guard).

Sacramento sends us Rudy Gay.

We give up three guys who are expiring and all of whom will be very expensive to retain next year.  Cheaper to resign Thabo, Zaza, and Korver.

Rudy gives us a legit small forward, Baze moves to SG, and Korver to the bench.  Zaza gives our second unit some rebounding and scoring since we already have plenty of legit rim protection from Howard.

All our starters get 32 minutes a game and our first five each get 16 (Moose, Zaza, Thabo, Korver, Delaney).

[capstone21]

30 minutes ago, LongTimeFan said:

My three-team trade proposal ...

We send Splitter and Scott to Golden State (they need a defensive center).

They send us Zaza and they send Iguodala to Sacramento (the Kings get a replacement for Rudy Gay, after they send him to us, and some needed defense and veteran presence).

We send THjr to Sacramento (Kings need a shooting guard).

Sacramento sends us Rudy Gay.

We give up three guys who are expiring and all of whom will be very expensive to retain next year.  Cheaper to resign Thabo, Zaza, and Korver.

Rudy gives us a legit small forward, Baze moves to SG, and Korver to the bench.  Zaza gives our second unit some rebounding and scoring since we already have plenty of legit rim protection from Howard.

All our starters get 32 minutes a game and our first five each get 16 (Moose, Zaza, Thabo, Korver, Delaney).

With things working well and having good chemistry and people knowing their roles ... why do we want to mess with that?

[aali34]

Why would GSW want an injury prone center as a starter

Edited November 11, 2016 by aali34

[nathan2331]

Why would GSW want an injury prone center as a starter

Shh, they don't have to know that. Splitter came from the Spurs, so he HAS to be good.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, capstone21 said:

With things working well and having good chemistry and people knowing their roles ... why do we want to mess with that?

Because I don't believe our current line up is well constituted for the long run of the season.

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

Why would GSW want an injury prone center as a starter

Because he might be better than the starter they have now.  

[RedDawg#8]

5 hours ago, MaceCase said:

@RedDawg#8 They are playing above their heads because they've never done this before....ever.   Are they going to completely crater?  Not necessarily but that doesn't dispell that their production isn't an outlier especially in the case of Thabo.  Kyle even in an off year was producing league leading plus/minus and gravity, the expectancy isn't that he's going to have a huge scoring output it's that teams consistently guard him to prevent that.  And if you're making the argument that "the team is bigger than any one player!" hows that jive with the argument of the thread that Kyle is somehow single handedly holding the team back?

I'm not arguing that Kyle is holding the team back. I'm arguing that we are good with him yet even better with Thabo/THJ. The gravity thing is cool and all but again how'd that help us on the defensive end against CLE in the playoffs? 

Also, Thabo had the 2nd highest FG% on the team last year despite it being a down year for him too, so I really don't think he is that over his head considering he has found his niche in our system and doesn't try to do anything he can't. Nights when his shot is falling, he keeps shooting. Nights when it isn't, he doesn't and finds other ways to contribute. That's something Timmy still has to learn because he will keep jacking jumpers even if he is off that night.

My argument isn't to bash Kyle. I think he has tremendous value to us, I just don't think we will ever reach our goal of winning a championship (which means getting past CLE, SA, GS) with him in the starting lineup.  We simply don't match up with those teams with a SG that can't guard anyone on their wing and cannot help create offense when under pressure. And since Bud is all about continuity, I doubt he would ever change the lineup just for those teams. (It took 5 straight losses to the Cavs before he decided to give Thabo a chance) Id rather we make the adjustment NOW and roll with the lineup that will give us the best chance to come out of the East as our default group.

[Kimsey]

On 11/10/2016 at 8:54 PM, Lurker said:

I said when Horford was swapped out for Howard, the biggest difference would end up being on the defensive end. They immediately chose to swap out a blitzing and trapping defense for much more of a normal defense that has the big stay back and everyone play straight up. That wouldn't be much of an issue, except it exposes Kyle Korver more.

When people say that Kyle Korver is a much better defender than he's given credit for, they are technically correct in the kind of defense the Hawks were playing (which is why I said a few times that Horford helped hide Korver on defense). His quick hands and anticipation was very helpful in the blitzing and trapping the Hawks did with Al Horford as the C. But now that the Hawks are playing more straight up, we're seeing that the lateral speed for Korver, which was already pretty slow, is even slower than it was in his previous season where he came in healthy (14/15). It is tougher to hide Korver in more straight up defense, which is why the Hawks previously blitzed and trapped a lot.

So, is Korver's three point shooting cancelling out his more vulnerable defense? If you look at basketball-reference, the answer is no right now and ORTG suggests that he's not bringing the effects he did in 2013-2015.

The solution to this would be to bring back the blitzing and trapping with Mike Muscala in.

 

So what you are really saying is to trade Korver. If you aren't implying that I might depending on the return. Only good enough two way guy at sf available to us is probably Rudy Gay. 

If Thabo has discovered how to harness this type of play throughout the season then he should start in front of KK. 

 

 

[Lurker]

I wasn't implying that.

All I'm getting at is while Kyle Korver is a good role player, he's not someone that you should revolve your offense around and consider as a significant piece.