The Tank Thread

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, Diesel said:

However, let's say we do get a franchise player... Undeniable franchise player.  How many franchise players have our weak fanbase alienated right out of town??  The best of those draft picks... Al Horford.  We offered him money to stay.  He left.   That was during the time that we were still good.  The point is that First you have to change the environment to one that welcomes a star player... and then get the star player.. and he will go out and get other star players.   Right now, if we got a star, he's on an island. 

 

None.  The only franchise player we ever drafted in Atlanta was traded out of town and has returned here and put down roots with the team that drafted him.  Al Horford was never close to a franchise player.  Al was no MJ.  He was no Pippen.  Al was Horace Grant.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

None.  The only franchise player we ever drafted in Atlanta was traded out of town and has returned here and put down roots with the team that drafted him.  Al Horford was never close to a franchise player.  Al was no MJ.  He was no Pippen.  Al was Horace Grant.

So then... that means that having a #2, #3, #5,  #6, & #10 in a 4 yr period netted us....  Horace Grant. 

And you are gong ho about betting the future again for another shot....

AHF... Would you empty your life savings on State Lottery Tickets?

I mean... if you won the State Lottery moneyball, you would be rich and you wouldn't have to work anymore.  You would be on easy street... and if you emptied your life savings, you'd have a better shot at winning.... so why not do it?

[KB21]

Keep holding on to that false hope that the Hawks will be the second team in the history of the league to build a championship team with lottery picks.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

So then... that means that having a #2, #3, #5,  #6, & #10 in a 4 yr period netted us....  Horace Grant. 

And you are gong ho about betting the future again for another shot....

AHF... Would you empty your life savings on State Lottery Tickets?

I mean... if you won the State Lottery moneyball, you would be rich and you wouldn't have to work anymore.  You would be on easy street... and if you emptied your life savings, you'd have a better shot at winning.... so why not do it?

If the goal was to be a millionaire and the only people who became millionaires are the people who win the lottery, then the only rationale choice is to win the lottery.

If you are content not being a millionaire, you can keep going down the path you are heading.

(There are a million problems with this analogy from the "life savings" idea to the odds of winning the state lottery as compared to the NBA lottery, etc. but they aren't worth touching.)

Tell me why you think Al Horford is a franchise player in the mold of Shaq, MJ, LeBron, Hakeem, Duncan and others who anchor championship rosters and I'll concede your prior point but otherwise we clearly have not had the chance to run a franchise talent out of town for the Hawks.

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Keep holding on to that false hope that the Hawks will be the second team in the history of the league to build a championship team with lottery picks.

Tell me how Chicago built their 6 time championship team without lottery picks Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen and how the Golden State Warriors built their championship teams without lottery picks.  This just gets wilder and wilder.

Only one team has ever built a team with lottery picks?  Which team wins rings without their guys?  The Bulls win without MJ and Pip?  The Warriors win without Curry and Thompson?  Let alone all the other lottery picks who drove their teams to rings.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Tell me how Chicago built their 6 time championship team without lottery picks Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen and how the Golden State Warriors built their championship teams without lottery picks.  This just gets wilder and wilder.

Only one team has ever built a team with lottery picks?  Which team wins rings without their guys?  The Bulls win without MJ and Pip?  The Warriors win without Curry and Thompson?  Let alone all the other lottery picks who drove their teams to rings.

Jordan wasn't a lottery pick.  He was drafted before the lottery was instituted.  Pippen was also selected by Seattle and traded to Chicago.  Chicago also didn't win a championship until 7 years after they drafted Jordan.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

If the goal was to be a millionaire and the only people who became millionaires are the people who win the lottery, then the only rationale choice is to win the lottery.

If you are content not being a millionaire, you can keep going down the path you are heading.

(There are a million problems with this analogy from the "life savings" idea to the odds of winning the state lottery as compared to the NBA lottery, etc. but they aren't worth touching.)

Tell me why you think Al Horford is a franchise player in the mold of Shaq, MJ, LeBron, Hakeem, Duncan and others who anchor championship rosters and I'll concede your prior point but otherwise we clearly have not had the chance to run a franchise talent out of town for the Hawks.

There's the faulty logic

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

There's the faulty logic

Who won a ring without having key players picked 1-14 in the draft?

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, AHF said:

None.  The only franchise player we ever drafted in Atlanta was traded out of town and has returned here and put down roots with the team that drafted him.  Al Horford was never close to a franchise player.  Al was no MJ.  He was no Pippen.  Al was Horace Grant.

I think Al was a star. I still think he's a star. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Jordan wasn't a lottery pick.  He was drafted before the lottery was instituted.  Pippen was also selected by Seattle and traded to Chicago.  Chicago also didn't win a championship until 7 years after they drafted Jordan.

They had the 3rd pick, stop trolling. Saying, there was no lottery. Man, they wouldn't have him if they weren't terrible. Simple as that. 

 

Pippen was traded for Oden P was in the same draft who was drafted 8th overall. Scottie was 5th. Bulls traded that pick and the 1989 1st for Pippen. That's a top 10 pick. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by NBASupes

[TheFuzz]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

Jordan wasn't a lottery pick.  He was drafted before the lottery was instituted.  Pippen was also selected by Seattle and traded to Chicago.  Chicago also didn't win a championship until 7 years after they drafted Jordan.

This ish is the best comedy since the Room.

[noble]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

Nope.  KB sat through the same thing with Billy Knight. 

His picks in the lottery were:   Law, Shellhead, Horford, Marvin, and Childress.   We had 5 shots in 4 years.  Only Horford ever amounted to anything and he was never in the conversation for MVP.   Did we learn anything?  Obviously not because we're on our way to do it again.  This time will be better though... right??  But what if it's not?  What if we gave up all those gains for nothing?  One loss we have already taken is our reputation among free agents.   The second loss will be Bud... a coach of the year winner, we've converted to a lame duck coach.  The third will be our sometimey fanbase.    So this is what you want to bring a "Star" into?  I'm waiting for the reaction when we fire Bud and bring in another treadmill coach.  My guess is Mike Brown.  In fact, I'm going to laugh hysterically when he's hired.   It's going to signal.... non-reform.

 

OK. I hated the Billy Knight era, but I truly believe we have better talent evaluation now than we did then. We can't compare the ownership and staff of the team between the two.

This fan base has become so jaded that we think no matter which direction we go, we are a treadmill team. Some of us believe tanking and going lottery means we will treadmill as a bad team. Some of us think sitting as a middle of the road team that makes the playoffs, but not much more, is nothing more than a futile attempt.

What have we lost honestly? We weren't a championship caliber team then, we weren't the last few years, and we aren't now. And we haven't been a haven for free agents, so saying we lost that, I don't think we ever really had it. Heck, we couldn't even keep the pieces we had. Hard to lose something you never had to begin with. I'm not sure Bud is going anywhere for a few seasons. I believe he knows what lies ahead for a few years.

The ownership is so different now, that at the very least it looks like they are trying to improve the team in ways the previous ownership never did. I don't know man, maybe I am just so used to never being a real contender, not making the playoffs really isn't a huge loss for me. I've been a fan for a very long time and I won't stop being a fan, I would just rather watch this team try to get a Superstar, rather than being just another team in the playoffs that won't have a chance.

[Lurker]

The magical bad witch dust has been put on high picks due to the lottery and most of those players will suck. Next, this guy will come in and say that Michael Jordan was a workaholic and he doesn't count because of this this and this.

To the actual good folk of this forum, you have a nice weekend. I probably won't be back until sometime Sunday.

[Sothron]

Remember, Embiid can't be a good player because he was taken high in the lottery on a rebuilding team. Same with Ben Simmons. Just ignore how good they are because our resident Hoagie Roll has declared all lottery picks busts.

Edited November 2, 2017 by lethalweapon3
Dolfan Rule #1 strikes again! ~lw3

[Peoriabird]

The run was over guys!  It was time to break up the band.

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

Who won a ring without having key players picked 1-14 in the draft?

Well, let's talk technicalities that you readily ignored.    You asked this of KB and he said...  Dallas.   You said that they picked Dirk.  However, Dirk was drafted by Milwaukee.   IF Milwaukee doesn't make that trade, Dallas never wins a championship. 

There's also the LALs...  with Kobe..  and with Kobe/Shaq.   Kobe was drafted by the Hornets at #13.  Charlotte doesn't trade him, Lakers don't win those championships. 

There's also 2004 Detroit Pistons who beat Kobe/Shaq.  Pistons were considered one of the best teams ever assembled.  Dumars didn't draft any of them in the Lottery.  He got them all by trade. 

As said, there are other ways to become a "millionaire". 

The problem with your question is that over the last 30 years, there have only been 8 franchises to win championships.   Many threepeats and repeats.  And I concede that Lottery players do get to championship caliber.  However, getting lottery players is not always by tanking. 

 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, noble said:

OK. I hated the Billy Knight era, but I truly believe we have better talent evaluation now than we did then. We can't compare the ownership and staff of the team between the two.

 

That's hindsight and hope!  The truth is Knight made some really good trades for talented players.. and he did pick some good players (not lottery).  Josh Smith was a great pick.    Boris Diaw was a great pick.    Signing guys like Joe Johnson, Al Harrington, and Zaza Pachulia were great pick ups. 

Right now in the Schlenk era... he's got 1 draft under his belt.   I like Collins.  I'm glad we picked him.   It was a good pick.   But let's not say that because Schlenk got one right (the equivalent of Josh Smith) that we're so much better now.   Time will reveal. 

[MaceCase]

12 hours ago, Diesel said:

So then... that means that having a #2, #3, #5,  #6, & #10 in a 4 yr period netted us....  Horace Grant. 

And you are gong ho about betting the future again for another shot....

AHF... Would you empty your life savings on State Lottery Tickets?

I mean... if you won the State Lottery moneyball, you would be rich and you wouldn't have to work anymore.  You would be on easy street... and if you emptied your life savings, you'd have a better shot at winning.... so why not do it?

The important part you missed is that franchise level talent was available at most of those picks which proves AHF's point.  Because the Hawks passed on selecting the better players does not disprove that franchise level talent exists in the lottery.  You're entire argument is that because a previous GM proved to be a fool that therefore the entire strategy is foolish.... That just doesn't jive.  That argument only exists if whomever the Hawks selected were the best or amongst the best that their draft had to offer.  Only then can you say "okay this isn't the best use of our time and resources" but even you know that that is categorically false.

 

The Hawks previous path was akin to having little life savings and living paycheck to paycheck paying rent on someone else's property.  That landlord decides to now raise the rent and even if you pick up an extra job, sell off your valuables, and dip into what little life savings that you have you're still likely facing an eviction in the near future.  So what's your choice next time you're in the liquor store?  

......Well given the quality of some of these arguments I'm sure your best solution is to knock over the liquor store to pay off this month's rent and worry about next month's later.

[Diesel]

20 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

The important part you missed is that franchise level talent was available at most of those picks which proves AHF's point.  Because the Hawks passed on selecting the better players does not disprove that franchise level talent exists in the lottery.  You're entire argument is that because a previous GM proved to be a fool that therefore the entire strategy is foolish.... That just doesn't jive.  That argument only exists if whomever the Hawks selected were the best or amongst the best that their draft had to offer.  Only then can you say "okay this isn't the best use of our time and resources" but even you know that that is categorically false.

 

The Hawks previous path was akin to having little life savings and living paycheck to paycheck paying rent on someone else's property.  That landlord decides to now raise the rent and even if you pick up an extra job, sell off your valuables, and dip into what little life savings that you have you're still likely facing an eviction in the near future.  So what's your choice next time you're in the liquor store?  

......Well given the quality of some of these arguments I'm sure your best solution is to knock over the liquor store to pay off this month's rent and worry about next month's later.

No Case, it's not just previous Hawks ownership... it's most management.

Here's the thing.  You have to be blind if you don't see that the lottery is rigged and it's the nba's way of rigging what team gets the next high level talent. 

8 Franchises have won championships over the last 30 years.  the quest isn't which of them had lottery talent.  The question is which of them secured lottery talent by tanking.   I can think of only 1... San Antonio.  And they got theirs because the lottery was too busy Punishing Boston for tanking. 

[MaceCase]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

No Case, it's not just previous Hawks ownership... it's most management.

Here's the thing.  You have to be blind if you don't see that the lottery is rigged and it's the nba's way of rigging what team gets the next high level talent. 

8 Franchises have won championships over the last 30 years.  the quest isn't which of them had lottery talent.  The question is which of them secured lottery talent by tanking.   I can think of only 1... San Antonio.  And they got theirs because the lottery was too busy Punishing Boston for tanking. 

So conspiracy theories and utter falsehoods then? 8 franchises have won over the past 30 years but there have been 19 different participants in the Finals, and 26 different teams in the Conference Finals.  There are only 30 teams in the NBA.  Even the Atlanta Hawks managed to enter that conversation once.  What does all that information mean?  Absolutely nothing.  100% of those teams had players drafted in the top 14 amongst their leaders, so how does a team go about acquiring said player then?