Trae and John on USA Basketball Select Team

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Was texting about that with my brothers and dad today.  The Tech grads among the family are very excited about the series and I root for Tech as long as they aren't playing UK or UGA so we are all pretty happy.  We all also agree that this will almost surely be an easy W on the schedule for the Cats but should be good exposure for Tech recruiting.

I could see us winning the '19 game if all our transfers-in get their waivers.  We'll have our usual janky roster but we'll have bodies.  And Pastner seems to do better when the expectations are lowest.  Then, of course, the UK faithful falls in love with him and hires him from us when Cal goes to the Lakers.

Then we'll be all ...

[Buzzard]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

Was texting about that with my brothers and dad today.  The Tech grads among the family are very excited about the series and I root for Tech as long as they aren't playing UK or UGA so we are all pretty happy.  We all also agree that this will almost surely be an easy W on the schedule for the Cats but should be good exposure for Tech recruiting.

I am a Tech Fan, not alumni, going back to Cremins and his NYC PG pipeline. I use to go to two to four games a year courtesy of my wife's boss; who was a alum and season ticket holder. Best memory was watching Great Scott hit a game winner against then #1 Duke. Its a shame how the Yellow Jackets have fallen off the basketball map. I really hope things start turning around.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I am a Tech Fan, not alumni, going back to Cremins and his NYC PG pipeline. I use to go to two to four games a year courtesy of my wife's boss; who was a alum and season ticket holder. Best memory was watching Great Scott hit a game winner against then #1 Duke. Its a shame how the Yellow Jackets have fallen off the basketball map. I really hope things start turning around.

The Cremins years were very exciting.  LW3 was fantastic.  Wish they would have won a championship as they had the talent to do it.

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I am a Tech Fan, not alumni, going back to Cremins and his NYC PG pipeline. I use to go to two to four games a year courtesy of my wife's boss; who was a alum and season ticket holder. Best memory was watching Great Scott hit a game winner against then #1 Duke. Its a shame how the Yellow Jackets have fallen off the basketball map. I really hope things start turning around.

We're in purgatory for another 2 years at least based on the football hires.  Drained the reserve to get that turned over.  Not likely to have the stomach to make an appropriate basketball coaching hire ... commitment for a little while.

[AHF]

Just now, kg01 said:

We're in purgatory for another 2 years at least based on the football hires.  Drained the reserve to get that turned over.  Not likely to have the stomach to make an appropriate basketball coaching hire ... commitment for a little while.

Maybe don't give the new coach an evergreen clause in his contract either.  Just friendly advice.  

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

We're in purgatory for another 2 years at least based on the football hires.  Drained the reserve to get that turned over.  Not likely to have the stomach to make an appropriate basketball coaching hire ... commitment for a little while.

Damn triple option can win games but forget about a championship. If you can't pass you are done in today's game.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

Damn triple option can win games but forget about a championship. If you can't pass you are done in today's game.

The triple wasn't the reason.

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Maybe don't give the new coach an evergreen clause in his contract either.  Just friendly advice.  

[frosgrim]

21 hours ago, kg01 said:

 

Am I the only one seeing these bright red flags surrounding this?  I can't be the only one.

When they pulled him outta SL it was because 'ohh him might get hurt' and 'ah, don't worry 'bout it, he's on the USA team so he'll get his work in there'.

Well, apparently not.  What TF, mayne?!

I mean, at some point basketball players gotta ... uhm ... play basketball, right?! 

What're they saving him for?  Their playoff run?!?!  Don't make me laugh, David Griffin!

And it's not just him.  All these dudes pulling out for flimsy reasons.  I get it with Beal.  Just had a kid.  Stay home, mayne.  But most of these dudes gon' be pulling out on top of load managing on top of just flat out sitting out games.  This has gone too freaking far.

They're gonna pull out of USA basketball only to go play in these rando summer leagues and open gyms where they could get injured anyways.  You'd rather have Jimmy the janitor there to get you medical attention if it happens or would you rather have an actual USA bball medical staff on hand if something goes wrong?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Guys in the 70's and 80's sacrificed and put up with a lot of nonsense to facilitate the money guys make nowadays.  Rather than honoring those sacrifices, today's players are laying the groundwork which will end up harming "their league" just as much as the prior generations helped it.

PS: I hate hearing NBA people saying that, "Our league".  So freaking pretentious.

All right, I'm off my soapbox.   I was listening to Smells like Teen Spirit as I wrote that. 

You aren't the only one. Brian Scalabrine went off on Zion pulling out of Team USA this morning. He could care less about summer league, but USA basketball is where Zion could learn how to be an NBA player (and get in shape). 

I'm with you on the general trend of guys not wanting to play because of fear of getting hurt.  At some point you have to play. And, the only way you get better is to play against guys who are better than you.  Team USA provides a ton of very good competition for young guys to learn. 

In the case of Zion, this is a NOP problem and I'm glad it isn't an ATL Hawks problem- 'nuf said. 

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

The triple wasn't the reason.

In my opinion it was. You are not going to compete with the pro style defenses with a triple option veer. If there is no real threat to pass, the safeties are going to be playing up all game long; or at least one up and only one protecting deep.

Antiquated 1960/70 Bear Bryant, Darrell Royal style of offense. I understand that is what Paul had to do at Navy. The talent pool was so thin. But at Tech, you have to compete with Miami, FSU, Clemson. Louisville, Notre Dame etc.

Adapt, recruit, or vanish into oblivion.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

In my opinion it was. You are not going to compete with the pro style defenses with a triple option veer. If there is no real threat to pass, the safeties are going to be playing up all game long; or at least one up and only one protecting deep.

Antiquated 1960/70 Bear Bryant, Darrell Royal style of offense. I understand that is what Paul had to do at Navy. The talent pool was so thin. But at Tech, you have to compete with Miami, FSU, Clemson. Louisville, Notre Dame etc.

Adapt, recruit, or vanish into oblivion.

Tougher to recruit elite players on either side of the ball when they know you'll be running a system that doesn't play at the next level.

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, frosgrim said:

You aren't the only one. Brian Scalabrine went off on Zion pulling out of Team USA this morning. He could care less about summer league, but USA basketball is where Zion could learn how to be an NBA player (and get in shape). 

I'm with you on the general trend of guys not wanting to play because of fear of getting hurt.  At some point you have to play. And, the only way you get better is to play against guys who are better than you.  Team USA provides a ton of very good competition for young guys to learn. 

In the case of Zion, this is a NOP problem and I'm glad it isn't an ATL Hawks problem- 'nuf said. 

I'd still take him.  I think he'll get past what is an admittedly rough start and good source for funny summer jokes.  It isn't like Cam has been playing a lot so we aren't risk free in that department either.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Tougher to recruit elite players on either side of the ball when they know you'll be running a system that doesn't play at the next level.

They were very lucky to get the wide receivers they did. And Paul never landed a QB that was drafted early. Not to mention the O Line. Run blocking is a need; but pass blocking is a bigger one at the next level.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

In my opinion it was. You are not going to compete with the pro style defenses with a triple option veer. If there is no real threat to pass, the safeties are going to be playing up all game long; or at least one up and only one protecting deep.

Antiquated 1960/70 Bear Bryant, Darrell Royal style of offense. I understand that is what Paul had to do at Navy. The talent pool was so thin. But at Tech, you have to compete with Miami, FSU, Clemson. Louisville, Notre Dame etc.

Adapt, recruit, or vanish into oblivion.

The offense was fine.  It was just time for a change.

Chan ran an NFL system.  How'd his time go?  Spoiler alert, not as well as Johnson's.  

I think CGC will do well.  But it won't be because he has a new offense.

And people seem to ignore the fact that not many colleges actually run "NFL" offenses.

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

They were very lucky to get the wide receivers they did. And Paul never landed a QB that was drafted early. Not to mention the O Line. Run blocking is a need; but pass blocking is a bigger one at the next level.

I was thinking just as much about defense.  You are practicing against an offense that in no way prepares you for the NFL game (which is very passing focused).  You either are facing your option first team which doesn't help much or you are facing the scout team running mimics of your upcoming opponent with talent that isn't that great anyway.  At what position does this become attractive for an elite defender to come to a team running a triple option / negligible passing system in this era?

9 minutes ago, kg01 said:

The offense was fine.  It was just time for a change.

Chan ran an NFL system.  How'd his time go?  Spoiler alert, not as well as Johnson's.  

I think CGC will do well.  But it won't be because he has a new offense.

And people seem to ignore the fact that not many colleges actually run "NFL" offenses.

I think the triple option can do a lot better than conventional systems for a team that doesn't have aspirations of being an elite team.  I just think it puts a cap on how good you can be because so much of a team's championship aspirations rise and fall on the depth of talent from your recruiting.  The triple option helps make up some of that gap by presenting a challenging, unconventional scheme which led to a pretty successful era for Johnson at Tech, IMO.

I'm not saying Johnson was a failure at Tech or that he didn't have legit accomplishments.  I just don't think he could ever come close to the level of program that Clemson is at with a triple option foundation for his team.

Using that base relegates you to a niche team which is a lot better than a weak sister of the poor running a pale imitation of what the elite teams run.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I think the triple option can do a lot better than conventional systems for a team that doesn't have aspirations of being an elite team.  I just think it puts a cap on how good you can be because so much of a team's championship aspirations rise and fall on the depth of talent from your recruiting.  The triple option helps make up some of that gap by presenting a challenging, unconventional scheme which led to a pretty successful era for Johnson at Tech, IMO.

I'm not saying Johnson was a failure at Tech or that he didn't have legit accomplishments.  I just don't think he could ever come close to the level of program that Clemson is at with a triple option foundation for his team.

Using that base relegates you to a niche team which is a lot better than a weak sister of the poor running a pale imitation of what the elite teams run.

We're going to be skating this razor blade until/unless something in our administration changes.  And, as you suggested, we're impacted more significantly on the defensive end than on the offensive side.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, kg01 said:

We're going to be skating this razor blade until/unless something in our administration changes.  And, as you suggested, we're impacted more significantly on the defensive end than on the offensive side.

I've seen a lot of turrible UK football teams over the years running pro systems (and some much better ones running "gimmick" offenses like Hal Mumme's Air Raid teams).  Running a pro system is no guarantee of success and for teams that struggle to recruit I think a niche system is actually a really good way to improve performance.  I just think it caps the level of success you can have and so whether it is right for a particular school depends on that school's aspirations.  Triple option has its place in the college game and most of the teams that opt to use it will end up punching above their weight class.

[Buzzard]

30 minutes ago, kg01 said:

The offense was fine.  It was just time for a change.

Chan ran an NFL system.  How'd his time go?  Spoiler alert, not as well as Johnson's.  

I think CGC will do well.  But it won't be because he has a new offense.

And people seem to ignore the fact that not many colleges actually run "NFL" offenses.

I am talking about the Ohio State's ( 358 a game passing ), Spartan's ( 217 a game passing ), Wolverine's ( 215 a game passing ), Tide ( 323 a game passing), Tigers ( 278 a game passing ). Teams who win their conferences. This is my point. If all you want to do is get close to a conference championship, the veer may work some years. And it did some years to get close.

I am not talking 300-400 yards like in the NFL. But I am talking about 200 yards to be a threat at the line of scrimmage. Johnson's offense averaged less than 150 yards in all of his seasons and his last two were under 100 yards a game. His QB passing percentage was in the less than 50% completion range almost every season.

Like AHF said, good luck getting a top 10 QB recruit, someone who can complete passes, coming your way running a veer.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Buzzard

[hawkman]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

Damn triple option can win games but forget about a championship. If you can't pass you are done in today's game.

They REALLY need a true dual threat QB to make that offense unstoppable. The closest Tech had to a true dual threat QB was Thomas, but he was 5'8" or 5'9". I don't know why the top tier dual threat recruits aren't running to commit to GT. This is THE best school for a running QB to display his skills. 

[cam1218]

I came in here to post that Collins and Trae have been named to the 2019 USA Basketball Select Team (link below) and saw some GT talk instead.

LINK

The triple option had its limitations for sure, but it wasn't the sole reason Tech didn't win a championship.  Regarding the QB comments, name me the last time GT ever had a QB make a huge NFL impact? Even under all of our "pro-style" offenses, it was hard to get that type of player here. So I get why they went with a unique offense to help create and advantage since we weren't getting those top players. With that said, outside of Nesbitt (who was already there) and Thomas, Paul did a poor job getting impact QBs in the system.

No matter what type of system you run, if the other team has better players (especially physically better) it is hard for you to do much of anything. A lot of the games where the offense looked bad, teams with dominant defensive lines were running straight through our blockers, around the blocks, and living in our back field. Paul Johnson had some really good teams and did a lot of good at GT. Either way, his offensive style and personality didn't really mesh well with what high schoolers are looking for these days. It was a good time to get a younger personality in who can relate to these younger kids and hopefully improve our recruiting. Like @kg01 said above, if Collins has more success it won't be because of the offense. It'll be because we have a more balanced team (offense AND defense) and comparable talent to the Clemsons of the world. 

[JayBirdHawk]