Vince is Back!

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is such an arbitrary statement.

Why wouldn't there be better effort on the court? 

If anything there WILL be better effort because Vince rides the kids collective a$$es to get it right.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is such an arbitrary statement.

Why wouldn't there be better effort on the court? 

Trae did not even try to defend the Pick and roll and would constantly get lost on defense off the ball.  I would think that with a little more effort, John would have had more that 1 steal before the all star break.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

You are being a tad pessimistic today. I wake up like that sometimes, then I watch:

 

So its pessimism if I don't agree with you and have evidence to support my claim?

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Didn't show because the Hawks won on pure talent alone not by playing smart basketball....Prince, Baze, Bembry played extremely dumb at times last year while John and Trae Lacked effort on D.  In fact Trae was very undisciplined with his shot during the 1st half of the season.  So there are plenty of arguments that fly in the face of your claims against your claims.  Lets not for get the bone headed play of Bembry fouling a 3 point shooter with no time left on the game clock allowing free throw shots to win the game against Indiana.

I only have one question - were the players (that matter) better at the end the season than they were to start the season? 

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I only have one question - were the players (that matter) better at the end the season than they were to start the season? 

Not Prince, Baze and Bembry.  Trae's effort on defense got worse.  John did improve.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Not Prince, Baze and Bembry.  Trae's effort on defense got worse.  John did improve.

Bembry was better, IMO.  Baze is a veteran with a mature game.  He isn't going to dynamically develop.  Prince was shipped out because he didn't make the adjustments they wanted to see him make.  Trae, Huerter, and John all improved.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Not Prince, Baze and Bembry.  Trae's effort on defense got worse.  John did improve.

That's just not true. Even Pierce said he got better and wasn't just totally lost on defense and the effort was also there.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Bembry was better, IMO.  Baze is a veteran with a mature game.  He isn't going to dynamically develop.  Prince was shipped out because he didn't make the adjustments they wanted to see him make.  Trae, Huerter, and John all improved.

Trae's effort didn't improve on defense especially on the pick and roll. Huerter didn't finish better around the rim but yes John did improve his defensive effort

[AHF]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Trae's effort didn't improve on defense especially on the pick and roll. Huerter didn't finish better around the rim but yes John did improve his defensive effort

What question are you addressing?  I thought the question was who was better at the end of the season than they were to begin?

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I only have one question - were the players (that matter) better at the end the season than they were to start the season? 

The answer is Trae, John and Kevin were all clearly better.  Veteran mentoring was part of that.

I do think Trae's effort actually improved over the course of the season but he has a long way to go on that side of the ball and where he finished wasn't good enough.  So I don't see that this was worse but at all stages of the season it left plenty to be desired.

Huerter actually finished pretty well around the rim - nearly 60% on shots near the rim (0-3 feet).  He struggled once he moved out a little further and that represents a big opportunity for improvement for him.  See his shot map:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huertke01/shooting/2019

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Not Prince, Baze and Bembry.  Trae's effort on defense got worse.  John did improve.

Trae's effort didn't get worse lol. If you think that you weren't watching.

[Peoriabird]

8 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Trae's effort didn't get worse lol. If you think that you weren't watching.

Yeah it did and I did rewatch most of the season

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

What question are you addressing?  I thought the question was who was better at the end of the season than they were to begin?

The answer is Trae, John and Kevin were all clearly better.  Veteran mentoring was part of that.

I do think Trae's effort actually improved over the course of the season but he has a long way to go on that side of the ball and where he finished wasn't good enough.  So I don't see that this was worse but at all stages of the season it left plenty to be desired.

Huerter actually finished pretty well around the rim - nearly 60% on shots near the rim (0-3 feet).  He struggled once he moved out a little further and that represents a big opportunity for improvement for him.  See his shot map:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huertke01/shooting/2019

If you read the thread...I never mention anyone's skill rather their effort and Trae's effort on defense was poor throughout the season

[AHF]

49 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

If you read the thread...I never mention anyone's skill rather their effort and Trae's effort on defense was poor throughout the season

You quoted someone raising that exact question as they credited some of the improvement over the course of the season to having Vince around while you claimed there was no value from Vince.  I pointed out your focus on Trae's effort was basically dodging the question because Trae clearly improved overall as the season progressed and I think our veterans were part of that.

Trae's defense was poor throughout the season but that doesn't render the improvement he did have moot.

[JayBirdHawk]

[Peoriabird]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

Trae's defense was poor throughout the season but that doesn't render the improvement he did have moot.

In November, Trae had 6 block shots...He had exactly 6 the rest of the season.  In December, He averaged over a steal per game.  .9 the rest of the way.

[Peoriabird]

Maybe Y'all didn't read the words that I posted so let me clear the air.  Trae Young and John Collins looked phenomenal on offense mainly because of talent and Pierce's master piece offensive scheme.

John and Trae did not look good on defense mainly because of  lack of effort on both their parts.  John improved after the allstar break but Trae did not.  I guess many want to attribute John's improvement on defense to Vince Carter which would be strange for Vince to wait that long to encourage him to hustle but O.K.  Trae's hustle stats did not improve...In fact they got worse after November for blocks and December for steals.  A good mentor would have seen this early and convinced the player to do these very important to winning things but it didn't happen. 

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

In November, Trae had 6 block shots...He had exactly 6 the rest of the season.  In December, He averaged over a steal per game.  .9 the rest of the way.

We don't have to talk about SSS again, do we?  This is like complaining about Bembry getting 12 blocks in November and not reaching double digits ever again in a month the rest of the season.  Who cares?  Short point guards get so few blocks that it is not a shock that they are clustered together.

November has all kinds of statistical oddities for the Hawks and Trae in particular.

BTW - He didn't have exactly 6 the rest of the season fwiw.  (Doesn't really matter).

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Maybe Y'all didn't read the words that I posted so let me clear the air.  Trae Young and John Collins looked phenomenal on offense mainly because of talent and Pierce's master piece offensive scheme.

John and Trae did not look good on defense mainly because of  lack of effort on both their parts.  John improved after the allstar break but Trae did not.  I guess many want to attribute John's improvement on defense to Vince Carter which would be strange for Vince to wait that long to encourage him to hustle but O.K.  Trae's hustle stats did not improve...In fact they got worse after November for blocks and December for steals.  A good mentor would have seen this early and convinced the player to do these very important to winning things but it didn't happen. 

To make it clear, players progress in different areas at different rates and very few players are complete players before they can legally buy a beer.  Veteran mentoring is not the sole or primary cause for their development but plays an important role for a young player's maturation in a variety of ways.  It is not an indictment of a veteran mentor that a young player showed little improvement over a season in which he showed tons of offensive improvement. 

 

The November / December isolated blocks and steals numbers are not statistically significant and so if you are trying to draw a conclusion by comparing those numbers against other months to show trends you won't be able to draw anything statistically meaningful.  Like we all agree JC's effort was better in March / April on D than in January but January is his high month for steals.  It doesn't paint a meaningful picture.

 

Big picture, in arguing that Vince was a bad mentor you are out completely on your own.  I've not heard that from a single player or even member of the media.  Heard the exact opposite from a lot of them and from Coach Pierce directly.  Schlenk sent the opposite message by holding a roster spot for him and then signing him.  Everyone other than you sees him as a positive mentor.

[Peoriabird]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

We don't have to talk about SSS again, do we?  This is like complaining about Bembry getting 12 blocks in November and not reaching double digits ever again in a month the rest of the season.  Who cares?  Short point guards get so few blocks that it is not a shock that they are clustered together.

November has all kinds of statistical oddities for the Hawks and Trae in particular.

BTW - He didn't have exactly 6 the rest of the season fwiw.  (Doesn't really matter).

I just knew we would get into these circular arguments because y'all truly don't want to to engage in a discussion but rather just give your opinion and stick with them but in reality those types of stats are hustle stats.  I guess I should understand that people want to believe what they want to believe

[Atlantaholic]

41 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

In November, Trae had 6 block shots...He had exactly 6 the rest of the season.  In December, He averaged over a steal per game.  .9 the rest of the way.

Yes let's judge the Trae's, the man with the shortest wingspan amongst starting NBA PGs, defense on blocks and a marginal change in steals from what he averaged in a single arbitrary month. OK then. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Atlantaholic