News and Notes: Updated between Games

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Someone who can have a team built around them covers a lot of people.

Being able to take a team deep in to the playoffs and be that guy you can depend on in the closing minutes is more nebulous.  Should I be reading this that deep into the playoffs means conference finals?

 

So players like Nique, John Stockton, and Chris Paul are not superstars by your definition correct?

 

It wasn't my definition by the way but I do agree.  Nigue/Paul were/are stars but not superstars.  Stockton was in the finals twice right?

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

It wasn't my definition by the way but I do agree.  Nigue/Paul were/are stars but not superstars.  Stockton was in the finals twice right?

Stockton was in the finals but was never the primary option in the closing minutes.  Karl Malone was the primary option.

It becomes very difficult to use this definition when looking at teams with multiple HOFers.  The definition seems established for identifying the one lead horse you are going to drive.  For example, someone like Bill Russell was never the go-to guy in the sense that this definition seems to suggest (it is vague).  The team was built around a host of HOFers not any single person.  So who is the superstar?  Are they all superstars?  Does Nique play the exact same game but become a superstar if an opponent gets injured and the team makes the conference finals one year or does he become one by ditching the Hawks and signing on with the Knicks and making the finals?

Thanks for providing this, though.  While I still don't have clarity this gets us much closer and explains why you have Allen Iverson over Nique, Stockton and others.

Note:

Luka became the youngest ever and first person since 1976 to post 36, 20 and 12.  Just your normal second year line for a guy who hurts his team by playing.

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Stockton was in the finals but was never the primary option in the closing minutes.  Karl Malone was the primary option.

It becomes very difficult to use this definition when looking at teams with multiple HOFers.  The definition seems established for identifying the one lead horse you are going to drive.  For example, someone like Bill Russell was never the go-to guy in the sense that this definition seems to suggest (it is vague).  The team was built around a host of HOFers not any single person.  So who is the superstar?  Are they all superstars?  Does Nique play the exact same game but become a superstar if an opponent gets injured and the team makes the conference finals one year or does he become one by ditching the Hawks and signing on with the Knicks and making the finals?

.

You are definitely a Lawyer!

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Thanks for providing this, though.  While I still don't have clarity this gets us much closer and explains why you have Allen Iverson over Nique, Stockton and others.

AI carried a team of nobodies and a washed up Mutombo to the finals

[AHF]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

AI carried a team of nobodies and a washed up Mutombo to the finals

You say crap like this that just makes me shake my head.  Deke was an All-Star that season and for the next 3 consecutive years.  HE WAS THE F****ING DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR THAT SEASON!!!

Now you have crapped on the league MVP and DPOY in trying to prop people up on this thread.  Crazy.

 

And this is a perfect example because Nique could have taken that team to the Finals in the East and done a better job of it than .420% FG% AI did that year.  The East was weak sauce - not the MJ, Bird, etc. rosters that Dominique faced.

[Peoriabird]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

You say crap like this that just makes me shake my head.  Deke was an All-Star that season and for the next 3 consecutive years.  HE WAS THE F****ING DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR THAT SEASON!!!

Now you have crapped on the league MVP and DPOY in trying to prop people up on this thread.  Crazy.

 

And this is a perfect example because Nique could have taken that team to the Finals in the East and done a better job of it than .420% FG% AI did that year.  The East was weak sauce - not the MJ, Bird, etc. rosters that Dominique faced.

Mutumbo was in his 11th season averaging 11 points per game. Plus he only played 26 regular season games with the 76'ers that season after Atlanta traded him to philly.

[Spud2nique]

37 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Nigue

This whole debate is getting worse than I thought. I come back to check on the peo ahf towelette fight and I see Nigue. Look, you can spell a lot of things wrong but don’t mess this puppy up! Thanks!

-All squawkers

[AHF]

I can't continue this discussion.  Now you think Mutombo averaging 11.5 points shows he was washed up?  He averaged 11.8 points at age 28 and 11.0 point at age 29 while he was still in Denver.  

Why do we need to crap on players to prop others up?  

2000-01 NBA Playoffs

Dikembe Mutombo  3.8 win shares, .201 WS/48, 19.6 PER, 122 ORtg, 98 DRtg

Allen Iverson  2.7 win shares, .130 WS/48, 22.5 PER, 105 ORtg, 106 DRtg

AI's Scoring: 38.9% FG%, 0.480% TS%, 723 points on 661 FGA

 

Larry Brown built a defensive juggernaut with a low efficiency chucker.  That team worked with AI but would have been fine with any volume scorer.  A .480 TS% isn't impossible to replicate.  It is actually a pretty brutally inefficient total.

 

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I can't continue this discussion.  Now you think Mutombo averaging 11.5 points shows he was washed up?  He averaged 11.8 points at age 28 and 11.0 point at age 29 while he was still in Denver.  

Why do we need to crap on players to prop others up?  

2000-01 NBA Playoffs

Dikembe Mutombo  3.8 win shares, .201 WS/48, 19.6 PER, 122 ORtg, 98 DRtg

Allen Iverson  2.7 win shares, .130 WS/48, 22.5 PER, 105 ORtg, 106 DRtg

AI's Scoring: 38.9% FG%, 0.480% TS%, 723 points on 661 FGA

 

Larry Brown built a defensive juggernaut with a low efficiency chucker.  That team worked with AI but would have been fine with any volume scorer.  A .480 TS% isn't impossible to replicate.  It is actually a pretty brutally inefficient total.

 

Again, Mutumbo was only their for 26 games.  The rest was Iverson carrying scrubs.  They were the number 1 seed without Mutumbo for most of the season.

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Allen Iverson  2.7 win shares, .130 WS/48, 22.5 PER, 105 ORtg, 106 DRtg

AI's Scoring: 38.9% FG%, 0.480% TS%, 723 points on 661 FGA

 

 

 

He was voted the MVP that season!

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Again, Mutumbo was only their for 26 games.  The rest was Iverson carrying scrubs.  They were the number 1 seed without Mutumbo for most of the season.

You might want to read my post.  Those were the playoff numbers since you put a greater emphasis on playoff performance than regular season in your definition.

I would not say that Iverson was washed up that season.  He was a pinnacle inefficient, high volume scorer.  Give Nique 661 FGA attempts, however, and he'll come up with more than 723 points.  (I just confirmed Nique's points per FGA were higher than this every playoff run Atlanta ever made with him.)

Nique leading a team to the number 1 seed means nothing to you so I'm not sure why you would want me to focus on that.  Iverson never made the finals without Deke, though.  I don't think that is a coincidence as his scoring only gets you so far at a sub-40% FG%.  

For the regular season, Philly had a winning record when Iverson didn't play.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I would not say that Iverson was washed up that season.  He was a pinnacle inefficient, high volume scorer.  Give Nique 661 FGA attempts, however, and he'll come up with more than 723 points.

 

The League was different back then.  You could literally beat the crap out of players driving down the lane!  Just ask Jordan.  So FG% were lower for guards in that ERA

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Nique leading a team to the number 1 seed means nothing to you so I'm not sure why you would want me to focus on that. 

Al Horford did the same thing.  Is he a Superstar?

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Al Horford did the same thing.  Is he a Superstar?

Of course not.  Horford was a stud role player.  Perfect #2 or #3 guy on a good to great team.  

 

AI was a high volume, low efficiency scorer.  Give the man enough FGA and he'll get to impressive point totals.  Don't let him dominate the ball and he'll put up more normal numbers.  

I don't think any AI team could ever have won a championship in any era but he did make it once when he got the DPOY added.

That was the weakest any conference has ever been in my lifetime.  You had the Sixers, Nets and Nets all make the finals with teams that had no realistic chance of beating any of the top 4+ teams in the West.  They might not have made it out of the first round of the playoffs in the West, let alone make the finals.  But that was the era and kudos to NJ and PHI for making three consecutive finals between the two of them.  And they won a total of 3 games in the finals over those 3 years which is probably a little better than you'd expect so kudos to them.

 

[Peoriabird]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

But that was the era and kudos to NJ and PHI for making three consecutive finals between the two of them.  And they won a total of 3 games in the finals over those 3 years which is probably a little better than you'd expect so kudos to them.

 

3>zero which is what Nique has.  There were stars in the east like Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Tracy Mcgrady and Jason Kidd etc.

[benhillboy]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

This whole debate is getting worse than I thought. I come back to check on the peo ahf towelette fight and I see Nigue. Look, you can spell a lot of things wrong but don’t mess this puppy up! Thanks!

-All squawkers

Lol sounds like a Frenchman or German saying the N-word.

I don’t know why I was expecting to see discussion of Devin Booker or Michael Porter in here.

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

3>zero which is what Nique has.  There were stars in the east like Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Tracy Mcgrady and Jason Kidd etc.

If you strip things of context, you lose something in this type of analysis imo.  Making the finals from the East in this era was less impressive than making the WCF.  At least the recent imbalance between the east and west still included viable contenders in the East.  That era didn't.  So I'll give Kidd, etc. credit for what they did but how far you advanced in the playoffs should be viewed in the context of your competition just as team success should be viewed in the context of the talent and construction of the team at issue and not just the lead player.

Beating a local YMCA team is not the same as beating Jordan's Bulls.  There were no Eastern Conference contenders in that stretch of time.  All the contenders were in the West.  The East "contenders" (to make the finals not win them) were a bunch of second and third tier teams without a legit chance.  They just weren't good enough until other teams emerged. 

So I have a hard time dinging Nique and saying he can't be a true superstar for only making it to Game 7 against Bird's Celtics but heaping praise on AI for winning a series 4-3 against a Bucks team led by Glenn Robinson and Ray Allen after Philly survived a prior Game 7 against Vince and Antonio Davis's meh Raptors team (with Aaron McKie leading the team in scoring in game 7 after AI shot 29.6% from the floor on 8-27 shooting).

[bird_dirt]

There haven't been any News or Notes Updated on this thread for at least the past dozen pages. 

Why do I keep clicking on it hoping to see something new?

Can threads be renamed? If so, I'd like to suggest "AHF vs Peo: The making of a super star."

[Peoriabird]

46 minutes ago, AHF said:

If you strip things of context, you lose something in this type of analysis imo.  Making the finals from the East in this era was less impressive than making the WCF.  At least the recent imbalance between the east and west still included viable contenders in the East.  That era didn't.  So I'll give Kidd, etc. credit for what they did but how far you advanced in the playoffs should be viewed in the context of your competition just as team success should be viewed in the context of the talent and construction of the team at issue and not just the lead player.

Beating a local YMCA team is not the same as beating Jordan's Bulls.  There were no Eastern Conference contenders in that stretch of time.  All the contenders were in the West.  The East "contenders" (to make the finals not win them) were a bunch of second and third tier teams without a legit chance.  They just weren't good enough until other teams emerged. 

So I have a hard time dinging Nique and saying he can't be a true superstar for only making it to Game 7 against Bird's Celtics but heaping praise on AI for winning a series 4-3 against a Bucks team led by Glenn Robinson and Ray Allen after Philly survived a prior Game 7 against Vince and Antonio Davis's meh Raptors team (with Aaron McKie leading the team in scoring in game 7 after AI shot 29.6% from the floor on 8-27 shooting).

Has Nique been a league MVP? Has he even finished top 5 in the voting? Lebron beat up on a watered down east also so are you going to downgrade him too? I'm not here to convince you that AI is a superstar. My only point has been that Luka is not.

[AHF]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

Has Nigue been a league MVP? Has he even finished top 5 in the voting? Lebron beat up on a watered down east also so are you going to downgrade him too? I'm not here to convince you that AI is a superstar. My only point has been that Luka is not.

Nigue has never been in the league.  Who is this person you are talking about?