WTF! John Collins Suspended 25 Games!?!

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Strawman.  You are incredibly naive if you think it will be responsible doctors making these decisions.  It isn't a slippery slope.  It is how it works today and how it will work in the future regardless of what drugs are on or off the banned list.  If guys think they can get a competitive advantage taking something their doctor didn't prescribe, they will take it.  Using your rule will expand the number of legal PEDs but fundamentally doesn't change the current dynamic.  The only scenario that works like you think it will is if you have no controls whatsoever.

And that would open the floodgates to all sorts of dangerous substances being ingested not only by pro athletes but by kids hoping to turn pro. No thanks. 

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

I'm fine with no controls, or some controls. But either way, PEDs should be an allowable part of the regimen. Even if it is just moving the goal posts as you suggest, that's not really the point. The point is expanding the options available for athletes as far as aiding in recovery and performance, drugs that augment testosterone or growth hormone being among those.

Creatine, protein powder, and cortisone are all performance enhancing and allowed. A line is drawn, because it must be drawn. I don't know enough about the drugs these athletes are taking to determine if the line makes sense or not, but if the line is removed it won't be a good thing for sports on any level. There is a large disconnect between the ideal of what sports are (healthy, just, fair) and what they currently are in the current pro environemnt... but at the end of the day you can't just throw the ideal out of the window because you want to maximize the entertainment value of the pro leagues at any and all costs. Sports are an important part of culture, and young kids should have the idealized version of sports to look up to because it helps us all as a culture for that to exist. 

57 minutes ago, Duff_Man said:

Grant Long certainly did not suck.

Grant Long was our Horace Grant. He was a good player for what his role was. 

[kg01]

Man ... you know what, forget y'all.  Grant Long did suck.  Average player.  I'm not lettin' y'all bully me anymore.  It is what it was.  Maybe y'all need to stop propping up these average players just 'cause they were Hawks.

If Collins comes back at that level, it'd be a colossal fail.

There, I said it.

Nothin?!

[AHF]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Man ... you know what, forget y'all.  Grant Long did suck.  Average player.  I'm not lettin' y'all bully me anymore.  It is what it was.  Maybe y'all need to stop propping up these average players just 'cause they were Hawks.

If Collins comes back at that level, it'd be a colossal fail.

 

 

Suck = way below average. 

Average =/= suck.

Grant Long was #2 and #3 on the team in Win Shares and #2 and #3 on the team in VORP (i.e., value over replacement player) with the Hawks in 1995 and 1996.  Valuable role player and significant contributor to both squads.

[HawkItus]

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/11/06/john-collins-atlanta-hawks-suspension-appeal?fbclid=IwAR0Bt-rzWVqMyiB5_sHiCoV3UNfFmeyD5FJ-jK5dcxwf29ihlR2f7qvxPlM

 

How Hawks F John Collins Can Fight to Reduce His Suspension The third-year forward plans to appeal the NBA's decision to suspend him for 25 games. MICHAEL MCCANN · 17 HOURS AGO For the second time in 12 days, a top player on an NBA team has been suspended 25 games for violating the league’s anti-drug program. And, for the second time, the player intends to challenge the legality of the suspension on grounds that he’s not responsible. On Tuesday, the NBA announced that Atlanta Hawks forward John Collins tested positive for Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide-2, a drug that is also known as pralmorelin. Article XXXIII of the collective bargaining agreement prohibits nearly 200 steroids and performance-enhancing drugs (SPEDs). Pralmorelin is on that lengthy list. Detectable in urine samples, pralmorelin increases the body’s level of growth hormone. In turn, pralmorelin helps an athlete enlarge his or her exercise capacity, add lean muscle mass and reduce body fat. Pralmorelin is known in the cycling world. Competitive cyclists have been caught using it and faced suspensions. Pralmorelin is banned by the International Olympic Committee’s World Anti-Doping Agency. Collins, 22, has the ignominious distinction of becoming the first NBA player to face discipline for pralmorelin. His suspension began Tuesday night when the Hawks hosted the San Antonio Spurs. Collins will lose $610,582 in salary. However, as explained below, Collins’s appeal could lead to a reduction in suspended games and an accompanying reduction in forfeited salary. Alongside guard Trae Young, Collins is one of two emerging Hawks stars. The former Wake Forest Demon Deacon leads the Hawks in rebounding (8.8), blocked shots (2.0) and minutes (32.2) per game. He is also the Hawks' second-leading scorer (17.0 per game) behind Young. Collins’s absence from the Hawks lineup will be highly disruptive to head coach Lloyd Pierce and his staff. The Collins suspension comes on the heels of the NBA suspending Phoenix Suns center Deandre Ayton for 25 games. Ayton tested positive for a banned diuretic. Athletes sometimes use diuretics as masking agents to hide the presence of SPEDs. Ayton appealed his suspension. Collins plans to do the same. And, like Ayton, Collins doesn’t dispute the test result. Both players have adopted the same core legal argument: deny knowing, or having reason to know, that the prohibited substance was in their system. 11/6/2019 John Collins suspension: How the Hawks forward can win his appeal - Sports Illustrated https://www.si.com/nba/2019/11/06/john-collins-atlanta-hawks-suspension-appeal?fbclid=IwAR0Bt-rzWVqMyiB5_sHiCoV3UNfFmeyD5FJ-jK5dcxwf29i… 2/3 To that point, Collins has released a statement of apology that resembles one released by Ayton. Collins expresses regret to his team and fans but stresses that he has “always been incredibly careful” about the foods and drinks he consumes. While Collins acknowledges that he ingested a supplement, he insists that, “unbeknownst” to him, the supplement was “contaminated with an illegal component.” Ayton, who is awaiting the result of his appeal, offered a similar explanation on Oct. 25. At the time, Ayton minimized his drug test result as merely reflecting “an unintentional mistake.” Along those lines, Ayton emphasized that he was “completely unaware of” the prohibited substance. Pursuant to Article XXXIII, a grievance arbitrator, who is neutral and independent, hears player appeals for SPEDS and diuretic test results. The arbitrator can sustain a suspension, reduce it or vacate it altogether. An appealing player is assisted by the National Basketball Players’ Association. In order to convince the arbitrator, the player faces a high burden of persuasion. He must prove by “clear and convincing evidence” that “he bears no significant fault or negligence” for the test result. In that same vein, the player must offer sufficient evidence to corroborate that he “did not know or suspect, and could not reasonably have known or suspected, even with the exercise of considerable caution and diligence, that he was taking, ingesting, applying, or otherwise using” a prohibited substance. As a result of this high standard, a player who simply argues “I had no idea this would happen, you’ve got to believe me, I’d never do anything like this” would lose his appeal. Establishing an absence of bad intent is not enough. The player must also demonstrate that the manner in which he ingested a substance would not have given an ordinary NBA player in his position reasonable grounds to suspect he might have consumed a prohibited substance. For Collins, he’ll need to detail how he obtained the supplement and what steps—if any—he took to assess the supplement’s ingredients. If, for example, Collins regularly uses this particular supplement and if he had not previously tested positive, he might credibly maintain that he had no reason to suspect that he would test positive this time around. It appears Collins will argue such a point. His statement references alleged contamination of the supplement. This implies that the supplement would not ordinarily contain the “illegal component” that triggered the positive result. To the extent Collins preserved the bottle or other materials that contained the supplement, and to the extent other samples from that bottle/materials also show contamination, the more persuasive a defense Collins can raise. The NBPA has a vested interest in seeing the suspensions of Ayton and Collins reduced. The union expended bargaining power in negotiating a drug policy that clearly distinguishes violators based on degree of fault. As Article XXXIII establishes, a player who mistakenly ingests a SPED or diuretic ought to be treated differently from one who knowingly or recklessly does so. Michael McCann is SI’s Legal Analyst. He is also an attorney and the Director of the Sports and Entertainment Law Institute at the University of New Hampshire Franklin Pierce School of Law. 11/6/2019 John Collins suspension: How the Hawks forward can win his appeal - Sports Illustrated

[kg01]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

 

Suck = way below average. 

Average =/= suck.

Grant Long was #2 and #3 on the team in Win Shares and #2 and #3 on the team in VORP (i.e., value over replacement player) with the Hawks in 1995 and 1996.  Valuable role player and significant contributor to both squads.

Could I change the components of the VORP or "Win shares" formulas to suit my argument?

[bleachkit]

3 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

And that would open the floodgates to all sorts of dangerous substances being ingested not only by pro athletes but by kids hoping to turn pro. No thanks. 

What are you talking about? You keep making these false assumptions. Banning substances leads to a black market, which is what we have now. Allowing FDA approved medicines to be used by athletes is perfectly reasonable. What are these "dangerous substances"? Once again, you're just parroting false, ignorant anti-drug propaganda.

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Could I change the components of the VORP or "Win shares" formulas to suit my argument?

Use whatever metrics you'd like.  He is average to above average in basically all of them.

95/96:  12.4 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.9 apg, 1.75 s/b pg while being a plus man defender....

Just solid stuff.

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

What are you talking about? You keep making these false assumptions. Banning substances leads to a black market, which is what we have now. Allowing FDA approved medicines to be used by athletes is perfectly reasonable. What are these "dangerous substances"? Once again, you're just parroting false, ignorant anti-drug propaganda.

He was talking about a world with no controls so people could freely use non-FDA approved medicines.

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

He was talking about a world with no controls so people could freely use non-FDA approved medicines.

They can do that right now. Drug tests can only pick up known drugs. Players can only be punished for taking a known drug. 

[Thomas]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

Use whatever metrics you'd like.  He is average to above average in basically all of them.

95/96:  12.4 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.9 apg, 1.75 s/b pg while being a plus man defender....

Just solid stuff.

Gotta have trustworthy team players. Not everyone is going to be the go to guy in the last twenty seconds. Grant was a good part of our past success and I just like cats that don't cause a locker room ruckus to boot. A very solid glue guy. 

[Spud2nique]

poor AHF, I just pictured him with a sword 🗡 just fightin all of you off from each and every direction. I’m sorry I know we don’t agree that often but I gotta give it up. #workinme

[Spud2nique]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

Just solid stuff.

Yes. Comon kg, did you listen to what the dude’s story?  

[AHF]

17 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

They can do that right now. Drug tests can only pick up known drugs. Players can only be punished for taking a known drug. 

Come on now.  You know that is wrong to say that only FDA approved drugs show up on drug tests.  Drug tests pick up all kinds of things that are not FDA approved and how you manufacture a drug (even with common base characteristics) can vary tremendously and carry with it tremendously different health risks.   Like versions of steroids made for large animals and not approved for human use will still show up on a drug test.  They will not be FDA approved and would violate your version of a future drug policy.  They would not violate a version of a future drug policy where anything goes.

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Come on now.  You know that is a gross oversimplication.  Drug tests pick up all kinds of drugs that are not FDA approved.

Generally, when an athlete gets popped for PEDs its some type of anabolic steroid, growth hormone or an androgen, or a diuretic, which is just a masking agent. The "designer drug" thing is largely a myth. 

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Generally, when an athlete gets popped for PEDs its some type of anabolic steroid, growth hormone or an androgen, or a diuretic, which is just a masking agent. The "designer drug" thing is largely a myth. 

There are many of these that are non-FDA approved that are currently used.  Animal steroids is an easy example.  You also see plenty of non-FDA approved PEDs smuggled from Mexico, Europe and other regions.  These would all be banned under your proposal.

[bleachkit]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

There are many of these that are non-FDA approved that are currently used.  Animal steroids is an easy example.  You also see plenty of non-FDA approved PEDs smuggled from Mexico, Europe and other regions.  These would all be banned under your proposal.

I'm not opposed to some modest regulations. If that's the crux of your argument I'll concede that. The most important thing is supervision from a team doctor, or more specifically, the thorough monitoring of lab values that indicate liver, kidney and glandular function. I see no good reason why an athlete cannot take steroids or HGH as long as its being done under medical supervision. The outright banning of drugs that could aid in recovery or performance is driven by outdated fears about PEDs that have been proven false, or are outliers. 

Athletes go overseas to get unique surgical treatments in Germany or France. Should those players be banned for getting an unfair competitive advantage? It's time move past irrational , theoretical "but what ifs.." , and allow androgens, steroids and growth hormones. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by bleachkit

[AHF]

My view is set clear rules, have a level playing field.  I'm not opposed to the kind of regulated approach you are talking about.  I'm just 100% positive people will continue to step over those guidelines whether it is by taking things not approved by the FDA or their doctor, by exceeding their doctor's prescribed dosages, or any number of other items.  Too much money at stake for people not to cheat if they believe they will get a competitive advantage (whether they actually get a meaningful advantage or not is secondary because there will always be athletes who are going to listen to bad people and not make sophisticated decisions on this). 

[bleachkit]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

My view is set clear rules, have a level playing field.  I'm not opposed to the kind of regulated approach you are talking about.  I'm just 100% positive people will continue to step over those guidelines whether it is by taking things not approved by the FDA or their doctor, by exceeding their doctor's prescribed dosages, or any number of other items.  Too much money at stake for people not to cheat if they believe they will get a competitive advantage (whether they actually get a meaningful advantage or not is secondary because there will always be athletes who are going to listen to bad people and not make sophisticated decisions on this). 

Yes gamesmanship will continue. But for me that's not the point. The point is to expand what's available to athletes in terms of aiding performance  and recovery. 

[AHF]

30 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Yes gamesmanship will continue. But for me that's not the point. The point is to expand what's available to athletes in terms of aiding performance  and recovery. 

For me the point is a level playing field for competition.