More than anyone on this squad, Cam Reddish is really starting to piss me off

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Straight line drives for dunks and layups. A fast break when it happens, and shoot threes. I agree about the dribble in and shoot from inside the three point line. They look crafty but are a waste more times than not.

 

He can work on his strength and dribble penetration in the off season.

No one is really giving him straight drives. Chicago gave him drives but into traffic. Only Miami gave him them straight line drives and that's because they are baiting for charges or overpersuring the point of attack which is how Denver burned them.

This is the NBA, if you don't have freak athleticism with handles, you better have that floater like Trae with crazy body control or else, stay out of the lane. 

Since Cam doesn't fall into either category, stay out of the lane is good advice.

Bro just needs to play his game and stop giving a damn about a make or miss. That's what he did at Duke. He had confidence he could make everything. Why do I feel Parker is more confident from three than him? Jabari can't even shoot like that. 

Cam, just play your game. Your entire prep and college career, you been shooting 7 to 10 threes a game per26 and 9 to 14 per36. That's an insane total. Bro, you not T-Mac. You not prime VC. You not DeRozan. You Cam Reddish. Shoot them damn threes!

Edited November 8, 2019 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

I'll say this a thousand times. Cam can play the same offensive game he played at Duke here with the Hawks and just play defense and rebound like he is doing now, I am an extremely happy camper and I'll look f***ing good. 

In Atlanta, we already run more actions than I ever seen us run for him at Duke on a game to game basis. He just needs to play his game. 

[Spud2nique]

I don’t mind Cam shooting if it’s there. If the pass is there get an assist, if you need to set a screen do it. Don’t limit yourself to strictly threes but rather take what the defense gives you imo. 

Cam is a star ️ it’s just a matter of when we see the entire package .

1-2 years?

3-5 year?

 

[Lurker]

I just don't really think that this is the plan by the Hawks. Think the plan here in year 1 always was to come in, play defense, stay in control on offense with your chances while we relegate you to being the 4th option in normal cases, so, probably a downgrade from last year (not looking but I'm guessing off the top of my head). The bring you along slowly plan while we try very hard in between games to work on helping you improve.

4th option=8-10 shots a game. 

To make it sound better though, this can also look like the Kawhi/Paul George/even Harden and Ingram to an extent plans from the past where they weren't high on the food chain offensively to start but worked their way up as they grew and developed. It is not a horrible thing that he's in that role. The thing that he needs to do is execute. 

I made a bold call elsewhere that can be found, but I realistically didn't expect a lot from his rookie season. At this point, even a Paul George/Brandon Ingram like rookie year would be massive success. 

BTW: If it isn't the Hawks plan, there's a third thing here other than Cam being passive/not trusting his shot that doesn't look great already, at least so far that we're seeing. Its to be on the side of nicer, Trae not trusting him yet. As there have been plenty of stretches where Cam does not even get a touch when Trae is on the floor at least to me.

[NBASupes]

49 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I just don't really think that this is the plan by the Hawks. Think the plan here in year 1 always was to come in, play defense, stay in control on offense with your chances while we relegate you to being the 4th option in normal cases, so, probably a downgrade from last year (not looking but I'm guessing off the top of my head). The bring you along slowly plan while we try very hard in between games to work on helping you improve.

4th option=8-10 shots a game. 

To make it sound better though, this can also look like the Kawhi/Paul George/even Harden and Ingram to an extent plans from the past where they weren't high on the food chain offensively to start but worked their way up as they grew and developed. It is not a horrible thing that he's in that role. The thing that he needs to do is execute. 

I made a bold call elsewhere that can be found, but I realistically didn't expect a lot from his rookie season. At this point, even a Paul George/Brandon Ingram like rookie year would be massive success. 

BTW: If it isn't the Hawks plan, there's a third thing here other than Cam being passive/not trusting his shot that doesn't look great already, at least so far that we're seeing. Its to be on the side of nicer, Trae not trusting him yet. As there have been plenty of stretches where Cam does not even get a touch when Trae is on the floor at least to me.

No offense but those guys all shot a much higher percentage from 2FG% and weren't getting blocked anywhere near as much. Lou Williams is the only player I see with these rookie metrics which makes sense as in HS, Lou was shooting horrendous percentages from three. He was mainly a slasher and a bucket. He had to adjust since he didn't have the athleticism, body control, or strength at that time. 

Cam is a rarity. His has those issues and is much worse in many of the areas than Lou but he can shoot unlike Lou at that time. Cam just has to shoot threes. That's what he does. To say otherwise is going v. the obvious. 

I don't see why anyone would be happy to see Cam shooting 5.1 threes per36. That's a pathetic percentage if you shot 10 per40 and 10per36 during most of your season. It doesn't make sense. That's a substantial gap. 5 less threes a game is a bigger gap from Klay Thompson to John Collins. Imagine Klay's effectiveness taking 5 less threes a game. He would be a nobody. 

This is extremely dangerous territory for Cam Reddish. This is how you become a bust. Even if some people (idiots) thought Cam was trash at Duke offensively, you will make it truly clear you are trash offensively shooting 28% from 2FG which is where you take a whopping 55% of your shots from. Let's compare this to one of the all time worst offensive Hawks of all time, Mario West. 46.7 - rookie 39.4 - 2nd  60.0 - 3rd. Note, he barely played but even with the Nets, he shot 47.1% from 2FG. This might be the worst offensive player I've ever seen put on a uniform other than Pape Sy, even Pape, the worst NBA player of all time shot 40% from 2FG range. 

Lurker, Cam get as many touches as he got at Duke. Not many at all. He still got up 12 shots a game. He still shot 66% of jumpers were threes. No excuses to me. If anything LP at least runs actions for Cam, Duke never did unless Zion or R.J. was off the floor. The Chicago game, he got a lot of touches due to Chicago's gameplan and he only shot 4 threes? WHAT!?! It wasn't like he didn't have space. They were baiting him to drive. If I will give you a lot of touches and you gonna drive into traffic, don't draw fouls and turn the ball over, you think you should trust them? 

I don't agree with none of ya'll in here who don't see what I am seeing. I guess you aren't familiar with this player so you are adjusting on the fly to him. I am familiar. I've watched more tape of him than any prospect we have gotten or worked out over the last 5 years. We got to use him right offensively. He can't be having games were he only shoots 3 threes. That's lunacy! 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

I don’t mind Cam shooting if it’s there. If the pass is there get an assist, if you need to set a screen do it. Don’t limit yourself to strictly threes but rather take what the defense gives you imo. 

Cam is a star ️ it’s just a matter of when we see the entire package .

1-2 years?

3-5 year?

 

He has the talent to do more in the long run but that's not going to come over night no matter how much he tries. It will flash but he needs legit work over the summer for that. We might not see quality slashing Cam till year 4 or 5. 

He can shoot. He need to that in volume. One thing Cam proved at Duke is he shoots better the more he shoots. He is like a bruising running back and 30 carries. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

A lot of fans really struggle with player type and what players already are. I knew anyone saying their goal for Kev path Bradley Beal was out their damn minds because I know he don't have that in his kit. He just couldn't draw fouls and even this year, he is still struggling to draw fouls. Teams adjusted to his scouting report as they did John's. 

I know Hunter was going to be a low end shooter from three with 4 man volume because he barely took them in college. It's no different than Leonard and others who played the 4 in college. It will take years before Hunter becomes a 7 3s a game player. 3 to 4 at the least. 

But all of those guys played their game. You can't say Kev is a bust even if he is struggling because he is still playing his game. Hunter looks like he did at UVa and some. 

Cam on defense has looked tremendous. Him and Lonzo Ball had some of the biggest jumps on the defensive end from college to the pros but on offense. Cam has been one of the worst I've seen in ages. He is not playing his game. He is a turnover machine anywhere around the paint. He takes too many bad quality mid range jumpers. Many of which are blocked. A number of these he had issues with in college. 

He just needs to play his game. Shoot threes, let it fly, show your high end variance from 3 and keep it pushing.

Out of all of our players. He is the first one that's doing the Bazemore or the Josh Smith and just doing things that don't make sense to me based on what he was before this level of play. I hated seeing Bazemore shoot so many damn jumpers. He didn't have a natural shooting touch and he didn't have a feel for them either. Cam peeve is driving to the paint and you know it's going to be either bad, good, really bad, or WTF!. I haven't felt those emotions since Josh Smith from three. 

My favorite scrub right now is Jordan Poole. Now he has no business starting but now that he is, I like how he is letting his nuts hang. 8.5 3s per36 which is 2.2 higher than in college at Michigan. Now he too like Cam can't finish all that well at this stage but he knows this, so he is shooting threes and not worrying about it. 

Cam nuts is shriveling, he is walking around naked in North Michigan in the middle of January. Poole is walking around the Playboy mansion naked like a boss. Now, it's not a great look either way but one is a total idiot, the other is a smart idiot with a chance to win. Be the smart idiot with a chance to win.

[Spud2nique]

20 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He can shoot. He need to that in volume. One thing Cam proved at Duke is he shoots better the more he shoots. He is like a bruising running back and 30 carries. 

I’m gonna respectfully disagree here. If he shoots and shoots alone without showing at least the threat of possessing other skills it’s easier for teams to game plan for him vs if he learns the all around game and just doesn’t chuck the ball.

Plus it’s still a team game and as much as we want individual success for Cam, we want Hawks success first and foremost.

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Cam nuts is shriveling, he is walking around naked in North Michigan in the middle of January.

nice.

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Be the smart idiot with a chance to win.

I love this. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

I’m gonna respectfully disagree here. If he shoots and shoots alone without showing at least the threat of possessing other skills it’s easier for teams to game plan for him vs if he learns the all around game and just doesn’t chuck the ball.

Plus it’s still a team game and as much as we want individual success for Cam, we want Hawks success first and foremost.

 

I tell posters this all of the time. I got every Cam stat on deck even more than the Trae ones. If I say it, you better believe it. 

[Spud2nique]

33 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I tell posters this all of the time. I got every Cam stat on deck even more than the Trae ones. If I say it, you better believe it. 

I’m not sure how those tweets are refuting my original statements in the previous post but sure. Again I love Cam for 3 if it’s there but it’s almost as if ur sacrificing the entire Hawks offense for the good of developing Cam which I am not on board with specially when we already have a superstar rising in Trae. 
 

If Cam were to take ill advised 3’s it would be to his own detriment and would hinder the development of the other players on our team.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

I’m not sure how those tweets are refuting my original statements in the previous post but sure. Again I love Cam for 3 if it’s there but it’s almost as if ur sacrificing the entire Hawks offense for the good of developing Cam which I am not on board with specially when we already have a superstar rising in Trae. 
 

If Cam were to take ill advised 3’s it would be to his own detriment and would hinder the development of the other players on our team.

The Hawks offense is basura mainly due to the starters. Mainly in part due to Cam's offensive ineptitude along with Len. I would say more Cam than Len. Cam spaced the floor well in the first three games but after that, teams are baiting Cam and doubling off of him while having backside help meaning cutting is not enough. You gotta shoot that bitch! 

Right now, the Hawks aren't getting enough shots from their starters and clearly aren't getting enough threes outside of from Trae. Hunter 4.4 per36 is wack but better than expected. Parker 5.3 is respectable af for a 4. Cam's 5.1 is flat out embarrassing and clownish considering he was getting 9-11 per36 on limited touches at Duke. Len is getting them up at a respectable clip but 13% from 3 is tough but it's still decent for a 5. Last year, Kev was giving us 6.2 per36 which is low for a 2. Bazemore was getting 6.6 per36 as a 3 which is decent for a 3. Not the shooters position as a 2 is. Prince was giving 7.3 for a 3 which is quality for a 3. 

If you can't get threes up, you need to do like Hunter. Be efficient and of quality from mid range and in the paint. Hunter has been that. Parker been efficient offensively, so has Collins. Len been awful but Cam. I don't know who this guy is. 55% of jumpers aren't threes. WTF! A damn joke! 

[MaceCase]

I just think it's asking too much of a guy who's probably close to two years removed from his last great game to have the blind confidence of putting up 10 shots in a game, particularly from 3. 

At this point that could be game/team/psyche breaking.  You don't want players asking "why are we doing this?" and we don't want Cam asking "why am I doing this?"  Take it slow, let him build confidence and string together a couple week's worth of effective games before you decide "hey, we want you leading the league in 3PAs."

[NBASupes]

Threes even missed good for spacing.

Strips bad, slows down offense, creates helter skelter. 

Live turnovers, bad especially from Cam has he mainly is our transition defense. We are a great defense when discipline and terrible when loose. We can't afford turnovers from anyone other than Trae. Especially live turnovers.

I see zero reason for Cam to shoot less than 75% of his shots as 3s. I only want to see 3s moving forward unless someone over pursues and Cam gets an open lane to fd up shit. Other than that, dribble pullups, double screen, someone goes under, shoot the three, movement, stepback, catch and shoots. I want high end variance threes. Nothing but. This is really making me angry. I hate to see Cam get slandered like this.

Not sure which player or coach told him to attack and attack. He might can do it once or twice in a game but in reality, the guy is a shooter. That's what he is.

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

I just think it's asking too much of a guy who's probably close to two years removed from his last great game to have the blind confidence of putting up 10 shots in a game, particularly from 3. 

At this point that could be game/team/psyche breaking.  You don't want players asking "why are we doing this?" and we don't want Cam asking "why am I doing this?"  Take it slow, let him build confidence and string together a couple week's worth of effective games before you decide "hey, we want you leading the league in 3PAs."

I've never seen this board in such terrible posting form. All of the great posters are on the wrong side of the boat on this one. 

He had at least 8 great offensive games considering his role last year. https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/cam-reddish-1/gamelog/2019/

He literally was taking over 10 per36 for most of the season. That's what I want for his mins. 7-9 threes a game. I am fine with that. 

Cam is not going to build confidence shooting 1-9 mostly mid range and paint shots and 3 turnovers. 

 

But 5-12 and 4-10 from three with no turnovers and 5fts will. 17/5/2 no turnovers and great defense. Now you talking my language. VC is shooting 17% and guess what, it don't matter cause volume is KING

[JayBirdHawk]

Pierce's plan for Reddish.

https://www.ajc.com/sports/basketball/rookie-cam-reddish-focused-steady-improvement-amid-shooting-struggles/g3QG7BbXGGa2eJbqEgrEkO/amp.html

Quote

The biggest areas of improvement for Reddish, per Pierce, is to stay shot-ready and balanced, control the tempo so as to not let defenses speed him up and attack the rim when his outside shot won’t go (for example, DeAndre’ Bembry has only taken five 3’s all season, making one, but goes into “attack mode,” as Pierce calls it, and is 59 percent from the field). 

“The focus is really just to play with pace, to play through contact and to be shot-ready,” Pierce said. “I think those are the areas of focus for him on the perimeter. Having his body and his hands ready to shoot. Sometimes, he’s such an upright player that he’s got to get to his shot. He should already be ready for his shot. With the basketball, we want all our guys to attack it downhill, that’s how we’ll create more shots and 3’s for other guys.” 

 

 

 

[Gray Mule]

Gee.  Rookie year is usually all about learning.  Cam Reddish is learning the NBA game right now and the NBA is learning Cam.  The Hawks are all learning each other and how each plays, what they are good at and what they can't do right now.  It's not just Cam.  It's the entire team.

Coaches are working with all the Hawk players, learning what they can do and what they can't.  Cam has been a three point specialist at Duke.  Trae, who works with him daily, said that he was impressed with his skill level.  In practice, he was hitting shots from near and far and in between.  Cam was voted the most likely to become an all star by other rookies.

It's not the time to panic.  I believe that Lloyd Pierce and his staff probably are smart enough to know what they are doing.  I hope I'm right.

Give our entire Hawk team time to grow and learn.  They all have a lot of room to improve.  Our older NBA teams have a starting five that have played together for several years.  Hawk team are just learning each others names.  Quiet a difference, isn't it.....

[marco102]

12 hours ago, NBASupes said:

One of my most famous quotes that some people in the industry knows from me that I usually only say in person is all draft busts look the same. 

Why I say that? It's obvious. They all look the same. 

1. You look at what they do. If they aren't doing what they did in AAU, HS, and college and decided to flip it up in the pros and it has been less effective, it's a bad sign.

Example: Jimmer Fredette. The OG bust. Why was he a bust? Many will say his defense but I'll say it's his offense. Jimmer shot 8.5 threes a game at BYU. In the NBA, just 6.8 per38 at it's peak. 5-6 range is a low value. 7-8 per36 in college or pro is solid volume and 9+ is high volume. 

When you can't do what you do, you will struggle. I always said I could care less about percentages for youngins. For me, percentages start to really matter in year 3 or 4 depending on your playing time. Year 1, you can shoot like shit, idc. 

That's my biggest sign. That's why I never wrote off guys like Monk or Frank Kaminsky. They are still playing their game, it might haven't translated all that well but they aren't real bust. They just need the right situation. I did the same for Victor Oladipo. 

I got a lot more but I am still in a meeting and they called on my name

Cam's game in high school was on the ball.  He was a three level scorer and a good facilitator. He shot a decent amount of threes, but didn't hit them at a high clip in high school or college.   He could shoot off the dribble really well. 

I want to see Cam improve his dribble.  When he's not getting stripped he's getting to the rim.  I'd like to see more of that from him. He also needs to adjust to finishing with contact.

I do not want to see a glorified JJ Reddick out there.  I want to see that three level scorer, that's the only way he truly reaches his potential.  Trae cut back on his threes when he was struggling.  Can Cam be the volume three point shooter? Sure, but I'd rather Cam realize his shot isn't falling and has other options, like getting to the rim or a mid range game, than hoisting up 10 threes a game and shooting us out the game. 

It's not logical to expect Cam to throw up 10 threes a game, when  he's not making himself available in the offense. He just stands at the three point line, he's not cutting or doing much else.  The coaches will probably bench him if he starts hoisting up threes early in the shot clock and missing. 

Why would you suggest a player do something that will get him benched.  It's like you are not considering that he is coming back from an injury and hasn't put in the work in order to adjust to the NBA three and conditioning.

I'm one of the biggest Cam supporters out there. I wanted him right after the 2018 draft and watched a ton of him in high school and college.  Just let the man develop at his own pace. I believe you get so upset with him because he's not doing what you expect him to do.  If he were playing like a bust, the coaches would have him in G League right now.  They want him to take his time and learn the offense and play hard defense.  As long as he plays tough defense and I see some small improvements from month to month, I'm happy with Cam.  

[AHF]

Supes - You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on Cam.  IMO, if he had been the first or second option at Duke or played on a team with solid 3pt shooting then he would have been much more versatile in his gameplan than he was.  But let's get past that because I think we are just going to disagree there.

 

I think your expectations of Cam shooting 70% 3's and 9+ per game is just super unrealistic.  That is such an extreme mold for a player who you don't think will even be a particularly good (in terms of 3pt%) player.  Cam at Duke only shot 61.8% 3's (not 66%) at Duke so not even in that environment did he go that extreme.  

Last season, you had 17 total NBA players who took 7 3's per game or more.  Of those 17:

• Collectively these 17 highest volume shooters averaged 51% of their attempts from long range
• Only 1 shot more than 70% of his FGA from 3:  Limited specialist Wayne Ellington (who shot over 37%)
• Collectively they shot a highly efficient 37.5% from distance
• The highest volume players were even better shooters.  The 3 players who averaged 9+ per game shot 39.4% from range.  (Explaining why their coaches made them the 3 who took this high a volume). 
• Only 1 player in the entire NBA shot 50%+ of his attempts at a volume of 7+ per game and didn't shoot at least 35% from range (Kyle Lowry who shot 34.7%)

So you want Cam to be a unique player in the NBA and make him even more of a "stay in your lane" player than he was in college.  I think that he needs to become the versatile player that his skillset requires -- his 3pt shot will be an important part of that (maybe the most important if he gets better) but only a part.

 Cam was a terrible offensive player at Duke.  Undraftable if you thought he would simply repeat what he did in college.  You don't draft him in the lottery looking for him to recreate that in the NBA.  You draft him in the lottery because you see his skills and believe he can become much more than he was at Duke.  LP's quote makes it clear that is exactly what they expect from him, and I think that is 100% the right way to go.

[benhillboy]

I’m from the Crazy 80’s and certainly no PC policeman or moderator but this is a tight-knit online community.  No need for referring to people who don’t agree with your volume 3 pointer premise (which is pretty much everybody) as “idiots” Supes.  We know you get passionate about your stances.  Just watch some tape of Al and cool out.

Edited November 8, 2019 by benhillboy