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Shouldn't have picked Cam

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1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm rooting for him and I'm patient, but....c'mon man.....saying he didn't look awful offensively going 0'fer until late....🤔.

I don't mean awful from the stance you are thinking. I am talking about what I was seeing before. He is now at least getting to the spot and not turning the ball over like a turnover machine. Now he is just bricking it. That's progress from how I am viewing him but we all view him differently. 

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5 hours ago, terrell said:

Heck, just look at Oubre who we faced last game. Took him like 4 years to look like an NBA player..

But guys like Oubre, and some of the aforementioned players in this thread, were hardly getting any minutes.  So while they had scrub numbers, those guys were only playing like 10 - 13 minutes a game.  And not even playing in every game.

Cam is averaging 23 minutes a game, and is playing with the best passing PG in the NBA.  And he's playing every night.

At some point, the coaching staff is going to have to do something that is in the best interest for his development, even if it affects the NBA team. After this road trip, Cam should be sent to College Park for a week, just to see if he can get what it feels like to be a good offensive player.  Because truth be told, he wasn't a good offensive player at Duke, in the role that he was in. 

He didn't make any of the 3 All-ACC teams.  He didn't make the All-ACC Freshman team.  And as good as his defense looks at times, he didn't even make All-ACC Defensive team.

I think too much has been thrown at him, and he's probably listening to a lot of people telling him how great he is, and that he'll just snap out of it.  He's not going to be able to snap out of it.  He's going to have to work his butt off to become a good player in this league.  If that means bringing him along a lot slower, so be it.

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26 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I don't mean awful from the stance you are thinking. I am talking about what I was seeing before. He is now at least getting to the spot and not turning the ball over like a turnover machine. Now he is just bricking it. That's progress from how I am viewing him but we all view him differently. 

Progress not perfection 👌 

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22 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But guys like Oubre, and some of the aforementioned players in this thread, were hardly getting any minutes.  So while they had scrub numbers, those guys were only playing like 10 - 13 minutes a game.  And not even playing in every game.

Cam is averaging 23 minutes a game, and is playing with the best passing PG in the NBA.  And he's playing every night.

At some point, the coaching staff is going to have to do something that is in the best interest for his development, even if it affects the NBA team. After this road trip, Cam should be sent to College Park for a week, just to see if he can get what it feels like to be a good offensive player.  Because truth be told, he wasn't a good offensive player at Duke, in the role that he was in. 

He didn't make any of the 3 All-ACC teams.  He didn't make the All-ACC Freshman team.  And as good as his defense looks at times, he didn't even make All-ACC Defensive team.

I think too much has been thrown at him, and he's probably listening to a lot of people telling him how great he is, and that he'll just snap out of it.  He's not going to be able to snap out of it.  He's going to have to work his butt off to become a good player in this league.  If that means bringing him along a lot slower, so be it.

He can snap out of it to a degree. Most rookies in the month of November suck ass. 

Just now, Spud2nique said:

Progress not perfection 👌 

Exactly, it's not pretty but Cam was not close just a week ago. He is closer but as he gets closer, his stats will get worse and now, he can take more shots and get to more attractive spots to just look bad at the end. The fan jeers but those like me understand it's just the process. 

Edited by NBASupes

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3 hours ago, terrell said:

I wasnt that high on him, based off of his 1 yr at Duke, but The Hawks drafted him without even working him out. Obviously they had to see something in the kid..I just want to see him hit some open shots..Getting fed up with the 0'fers, but Im not giving up on the guy yet..Thats crazy.  And I find it funny how it was a "3 player draft". And now people are complaining about who we picked at #10..lol. 

I just want him to string together a few decent games as well.  Nothing groundbreaking. 

If he's going to take 3 threes a game, make 1 of them.   If he's going to take 8 total shots, make 3 of them.  That is still below average shooting, but at least it's a contribution. 

In 9 of the 12 games he's played in, he's shot less than 30% FG.   If he's having that much trouble with his offense, he either needs to be on the bench until he's ready to be a decent contributor on a nightly basis, or he needs to NOT look for his shot as much, and just focus on defense.

Or he needs to work on his offensive game in College Park.  And honestly, who cares how that looks for him, or the Hawks, or in relation to the Doncic trade.  If he's sent down to the lower level for a week or two, but he comes out a better and more confident player, that's all that matters.

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6 hours ago, terrell said:

I wasnt that high on him, based off of his 1 yr at Duke, but The Hawks drafted him without even working him out. Obviously they had to see something in the kid..I just want to see him hit some open shots..Getting fed up with the 0'fers, but Im not giving up on the guy yet..Thats crazy.  And I find it funny how it was a "3 player draft". And now people are complaining about who we picked at #10..lol. 

3 player draft? Is anything more stupid than these pre-draft pronouncements like the future is set in stone? Drafts are a complete crapshoot and it is impossible to predict who will have the best career. 

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QUESTIONS:

1- Has Cam learned anything about how to play NBA ball since the draft?

2- Is there any hope that his shooting will improve?

3- Will he work on his body in the off season?  (Note: remember he was recovering from injuries and surgery last summer)

4- Is there THAT many great NBA players taken after Cam in the draft?

5- Since this is about Cam, what are the chances that he will prove to be better in the second half of the season?

:smug:

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15 hours ago, terrell said:

I wasnt that high on him, based off of his 1 yr at Duke, but The Hawks drafted him without even working him out. Obviously they had to see something in the kid..I just want to see him hit some open shots..Getting fed up with the 0'fers, but Im not giving up on the guy yet..Thats crazy.  And I find it funny how it was a "3 player draft". And now people are complaining about who we picked at #10..lol. 

Drafts are never as sure and certain as people want to make them. Often the obvious pick isn't so obvious and isn't correct. In this past draft there were not "obvious" picks at 10. All there was is a vast array of players with different skills, ceilings, and floors...none of which are guaranteed. All we have now are hindsight 20/20 people venting that if they were the GM they would have seen the obvious innate skills and abilities of player X who was drafted after 10. 

Just for an exercise in draft voodoo, revisit the 2005 NBA draft guides and the majority take on Marvin Williams. Regardless, I am still hoping for Cam's growth and development. He wouldn't have been my pick, but then again I am NOT an NBA scout:) Trusting the process here in the ATL!!!!

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5 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

QUESTIONS:

1- Has Cam learned anything about how to play NBA ball since the draft?

2- Is there any hope that his shooting will improve?

3- Will he work on his body in the off season?  (Note: remember he was recovering from injuries and surgery last summer)

4- Is there THAT many great NBA players taken after Cam in the draft?

5- Since this is about Cam, what are the chances that he will prove to be better in the second half of the season?

:smug:

1. Yes, he gotten much better at slashing, cutting, playmaking and decision making around the basket. 

2. It will take some time. He has some critical flaws. I do think the strength will come which will help a lot but not to the degree where we can expect a massive overhaul.

3. He has to no matter what but if he doesn't or does the bare minimum, don't expect a massive jump in year 2.

4. So far I see none but maybe Clarke long term but we will see. Of all of the players outplaying him, Herro is the only one younger than Reddish and he has sereve limitations. As of right now, Goga, P.J., Matisse, Eric Pashall, Carsen Edwards, Tyler Herro, and Brandon Clarke are clearly better at this time who get legit minutes. Most if not all of them had a high floor coming into the draft outside of Herro.

5. He keeps getting better each game so I would say extremely likely but he has to do it is the real answer. 

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1 hour ago, AHF said:

The single biggest need for Cam is improving shooting %s.  Only his ft% is even close to acceptable right now.  His other issues are minor in comparison and his strengths will look even better with that improvement.

Shooting and finishing but at least he has improved on getting into space and not traffic and being a much better decision maker. He is getting much better even if the +/- says he is getting much worse but that's what a -45 will do to a player regardless of how he played.

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3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Shooting and finishing but at least he has improved on getting into space and not traffic and being a much better decision maker. He is getting much better even if the +/- says he is getting much worse but that's what a -45 will do to a player regardless of how he played.

I'm not caught up in +/- on a game to game basis.  You need a pretty big sample size to make that number relevant and it has to be taken in the context of the team rotations (who is on the floor with you and against you).  

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Clarke and Bitadze are looking like the real deals. Rui is looking decent but his 3 point shooting weakness is glaring. Washington can flat out shoot a basketball. I am not that big on Herro or any of the SG's we passed on but I have been wondering lately what our front line would look like if we had not made the trade.

It is just Hunter, Cam. and Fernando's rookie season and I know it takes up three seasons to develop. I have probably just been spoiled by Collins, Trae, and Huerter.

Edited by Buzzard
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On 11/17/2019 at 4:38 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But guys like Oubre, and some of the aforementioned players in this thread, were hardly getting any minutes.  So while they had scrub numbers, those guys were only playing like 10 - 13 minutes a game.  And not even playing in every game.

Cam is averaging 23 minutes a game, and is playing with the best passing PG in the NBA.  And he's playing every night.

At some point, the coaching staff is going to have to do something that is in the best interest for his development, even if it affects the NBA team. After this road trip, Cam should be sent to College Park for a week, just to see if he can get what it feels like to be a good offensive player.  Because truth be told, he wasn't a good offensive player at Duke, in the role that he was in. 

He didn't make any of the 3 All-ACC teams.  He didn't make the All-ACC Freshman team.  And as good as his defense looks at times, he didn't even make All-ACC Defensive team.

I think too much has been thrown at him, and he's probably listening to a lot of people telling him how great he is, and that he'll just snap out of it.  He's not going to be able to snap out of it.  He's going to have to work his butt off to become a good player in this league.  If that means bringing him along a lot slower, so be it.

This and all of this...

On 11/17/2019 at 9:30 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I just want him to string together a few decent games as well.  Nothing groundbreaking. 

If he's going to take 3 threes a game, make 1 of them.   If he's going to take 8 total shots, make 3 of them.  That is still below average shooting, but at least it's a contribution. 

In 9 of the 12 games he's played in, he's shot less than 30% FG.   If he's having that much trouble with his offense, he either needs to be on the bench until he's ready to be a decent contributor on a nightly basis, or he needs to NOT look for his shot as much, and just focus on defense.

Or he needs to work on his offensive game in College Park.  And honestly, who cares how that looks for him, or the Hawks, or in relation to the Doncic trade.  If he's sent down to the lower level for a week or two, but he comes out a better and more confident player, that's all that matters.

He's getting wide open looks.  Trae is getting smothered and he's finding him on WIDE OPEN looks, Cam is just flat out struggling with this stroke and his confidence.  I hate to compare them, because he is a tad older, but you don't see that with Hunter.  I want to chalk it up to experience, but I just can't on some of these wide open shots that he's is bricking on.

Especially not when I see him hitting step backs and contested j's:

I'm sorry, but he can shoot and we all KNOW he can shoot.  I can forgive the oopsies in the lane and some of the misses here and there, but not some of these wide open 3's that he's just choking on.  I need him to show better than that.  This is all mental.  This isn't an issue of talent...it's confidence, drive, and coaching (two of those Marvin Williams was lacking, but I digress).

 I'm willing to give him a whole season and probably part of next season to get this confidence thing under control.  After that, if he's still looking lost and outmatched, I'm gonna toss my hopes on the kid.  I'm not looking for superstar performances, but I'm not going to pin any kind of hope this type of shooting if it continues.  Cam's gonna need to show us a couple of good games here and there.

Edited by Wretch
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3 hours ago, Wretch said:

This and all of this...

He's getting wide open looks.  Trae is getting smothered and he's finding him on WIDE OPEN looks, Cam is just flat out struggling with this stroke and his confidence.  I hate to compare them, because he is a tad older, but you don't see that with Hunter.  I want to chalk it up to experience, but I just can't on some of these wide open shots that he's is bricking on.

Especially not when I see him hitting step backs and contested j's:

I'm sorry, but he can shoot and we all KNOW he can shoot.  I can forgive the oopsies in the lane and some of the misses here and there, but not some of these wide open 3's that he's just choking on.  I need him to show better than that.  This is all mental.  This isn't an issue of talent...it's confidence, drive, and coaching (two of those Marvin Williams was lacking, but I digress).

 I'm willing to give him a whole season and probably part of next season to get this confidence thing under control.  After that, if he's still looking lost and outmatched, I'm gonna toss my hopes on the kid.  I'm not looking for superstar performances, but I'm not going to pin any kind of hope this type of shooting if it continues.  Cam's gonna need to show us a couple of good games here and there.

I don't know if he can shoot.  People who can really shoot, don't miss wide open shots as badly as he's missed them at times.  What may be the case, is that his mechanics on some of those open shots are poor, or that he's not really not strong enough to consistently make shots from 25 ft and out.

What I've seen from Cam, is that he is much better with the ball in his hands, than without.  The one thing I see that he can do at a decent level, is find the open man off of the pick and roll.  He's made some real good passes with the ball in his hands.  And while people despise the midrange shot, he may could knock that shot down at a much higher rate than he knocks down open 3s.

I think Pierce has to start identifying CLEARLY what the strengths of certain players are, and not try to make them fit what role you want them to play on the team.  Once they get comfortable playing to their strengths, THEN you can start to specialize what they can do out on the court.

Maybe Cam would be a lot better if he was going up against 2nd unit guys and acting as the primary ball handler . . . which is basically Bembry's role right now.

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1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I don't know if he can shoot.  People who can really shoot, don't miss wide open shots as badly as he's missed them at times.  What may be the case, is that his mechanics on some of those open shots are poor, or that he's not really not strong enough to consistently make shots from 25 ft and out.

Yeah...  I really can't argue there.  It's the optimist in me that wants to give him the benefit of a doubt.  Whatever it is, I can't see it as anything other than a mental block.  That's the game though.  How many young guys come in with all sorts of skill and talent, only to bust?  Then there's guys who aren't the most gifted but they put in work to become far more than anyone anticipates.

Marvin Williams is the poster child for the former kind of player.  He had all the physical tools - size, athleticism, speed - and he could actually shoot.  He would literally go out there though and be content with being conduit...deferring to everybody and never stepping up.  A lot of this game is just mental and if Cam doesn't have that mental edge, then I don't want to gamble on him developing it.

Agreed on Pierce, the 2nd unit thing, and basically what you were saying earlier.  Cam clearly needs development.  I think that takes precedence over trying to fill in holes.  Either limit his minutes coming off the bench where he can observe and not be punished for being so raw or send him to the G League where he can get comfortable shooting and being aggressive.

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