Ask Supes

[High5]

JC doesn’t strike me as someone who would give a “hometown” discount, but hopefully we’ll get a “Trae Young” discount. It’s unlikely any team trying to sign him will have anyone who can help his game more than Trae does.

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, High5 said:

JC doesn’t strike me as someone who would give a “hometown” discount, but hopefully we’ll get a “Trae Young” discount. It’s unlikely any team trying to sign him will have anyone who can help his game more than Trae does.

Hometown discounts usually come at the end of the career. Your second contract is full price.

[JTB]

17 hours ago, NBASupes said:

O'Connor is telling ya'll the truth as am I but I gotta be quiet on this one. I am done with this topic. Let's move on with the thread. 

That’s cool you don’t have to speak on it. I’ve had my suspicions for a while now and it has nothing to do with my thoughts on JC as fan but how I believe Schlenk and the front office see JC here long term fit with their plans to build around Trae . I don’t think it’s a secret and maybe my thinking is wrong in terms of what Schlenk and the front office truly believes but I think this Next season is a judgement season for collins being here long term. 

If Schlenk is truly running the show, to me he’s looking at Collins to improve greatly on defense and be an impact player on a winning team. Collins does that and I can no doubt see Schlenk get him signed here long term but if we continue to lose even if Collins has good looking offensive numbers it’s up in the air if Schlenk keeps him long term in my opinion and that’s unfortunate as a fan I really like JC but I think it’s good to try to see things from a GM side as much as possible too even  if you have to be predictable therefore I believe O’Connors report and I’ve thought this the whole time.

when I created this thread below on “Collins has to prove more....” it was solely based on how I felt  like the mind of Schlenk is thinking NOT my own thoughts so yes of course it was based heavily on predictions that I thought were actually true in a sense.
However my own point of view as of today If it’s up to me I’m keeping JC and trying to add other quality Bigs to form a top big man rotation! Y’all know me one of my favorite and most important things in build a winning team is to have a very good or great big man rotation and I think the money should be invested heavily in the big man rotation more so than the beloved wing rotation this new era raves about but that’s for another topic....anyways I don’t think Schlenk is comfortable giving Collins north of 20 mil unless Collins becomes better defensively and impacts winning actual games next season can’t stress that enough.

On the flip side if it’s up to Ressler however than I’m sure Collins will be a hawk long term as expected by most fans but up to Schlenk nah...Collins will be in year 4, Schlenk just got him a real defensive, rebounding center who can be the anchor and help Collins on defense as much as possible. I just don’t trust that Schlenk is overly impressed by his offense like most hawk fans are ...offensively Collins has already earned his max deal he will get next summer no matter what happens in the hawks season next year win or lose but that doesn’t mean he earned the max under Schlenk!
 

it’s odd because I know people will disagree with this and that’s fine but that’s just how I believe Schlenks thoughts are when it comes to JC. There’s some love, hate stuff going on there. Again it’s predictions that I believe are facts....nevertheless Let’s root JC on and this hawks team on to a winning season next year.

 

[thecampster]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

That’s cool you don’t have to speak on it. I’ve had my suspicions for a while now and it has nothing to do with my thoughts on JC as fan but how I believe Schlenk and the front office see JC here long term fit with their plans to build around Trae . I don’t think it’s a secret and maybe my thinking is wrong in terms of what Schlenk and the front office truly believes but I think this Next season is a judgement season for collins being here long term. 

If Schlenk is truly running the show, to me he’s looking at Collins to improve greatly on defense and be an impact player on a winning team. Collins does that and I can no doubt see Schlenk get him signed here long term but if we continue to lose even if Collins has good looking offensive numbers it’s up in the air if Schlenk keeps him long term in my opinion and that’s unfortunate as a fan I really like JC but I think it’s good to try to see things from a GM side as much as possible too even  if you have to be predictable therefore I believe O’Connors report and I’ve thought this the whole time.

when I created this thread below on “Collins has to prove more....” it was solely based on how I felt  like the mind of Schlenk is thinking NOT my own thoughts so yes of course it was based heavily on predictions that I thought were actually true in a sense.
However my own point of view as of today If it’s up to me I’m keeping JC and trying to add other quality Bigs to form a top big man rotation! Y’all know me one of my favorite and most important things in build a winning team is to have a very good or great big man rotation and I think the money should be invested heavily in the big man rotation more so than the beloved wing rotation this new era raves about but that’s for another topic....anyways I don’t think Schlenk is comfortable giving Collins north of 20 mil unless Collins becomes better defensively and impacts winning actual games next season can’t stress that enough.

On the flip side if it’s up to Ressler however than I’m sure Collins will be a hawk long term as expected by most fans but up to Schlenk nah...Collins will be in year 4, Schlenk just got him a real defensive, rebounding center who can be the anchor and help Collins on defense as much as possible. I just don’t trust that Schlenk is overly impressed by his offense like most hawk fans are ...offensively Collins has already earned his max deal he will get next summer no matter what happens in the hawks season next year win or lose but that doesn’t mean he earned the max under Schlenk!
 

it’s odd because I know people will disagree with this and that’s fine but that’s just how I believe Schlenks thoughts are when it comes to JC. There’s some love, hate stuff going on there. Again it’s predictions that I believe are facts....nevertheless Let’s root JC on and this hawks team on to a winning season next year.

 

I have very, very good feelings about next next year. I see us as +.500. Everything revolves on team health but I see both Cam and Hunter taking a step forward and Capela's additon can't be understated. Consider all that and that there is one more free agent to be signed and this is shaping up to be a very, very good team next year. Still too young to compete but more W's than L's.

[marco102]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

 I think this Next season is a judgement season for collins being here long term. 

If Schlenk is truly running the show, to me he’s looking at Collins to improve greatly on defense and be an impact player on a winning team. 

I don’t think Schlenk is comfortable giving Collins north of 20 mil unless Collins becomes better defensively and impacts winning actual games next season can’t stress that enough.

 

 

I agree that next season is a judgment season for John Collins.  Not in the sense that you do, but the only question about John contributing to winning is if he can play a full season.  John was injured his second year and suspended 25 games his third year.  However, even with shortened seasons he's shown tremendous improvement.  His defense last year was much better than his defense his seond season.  I'm going to love to see how he improves on that end with the addtiion of Capela and I'm sure Schlenk will too.   

John's actually the perfect compliment to Trae because John doesn't need the ball to contribute 20pts and 10 rebounds.  If you have a ball dominant player and an extremely efficient second option that only needs about 14 shots to get you 22 points a game and is one of the best young rebounders in the game, you're not letting that just walk out the door so easily. 

If the difference between keeping John and letting him walk out the door is about $20 million over the four years, I'll do the deal.

We also need to remember that JC was the 19th pick.  As far as production over three seasons, John's top three in points per game and number one in rebounds per game in his class.  He's number four in winshares and number five in VORP.  He's doing this while being on a losing teams.

John has a significant basis for asking for a max.  He's the 19th pick that has put up top 5 pick production.  He's going to ask for a max and I hope they settle on something in the $80 - $100 a year range.  If he gets the Jaylan Brown contract, 4 years/ $115 million. I'd be okay with that too. 

Also, the salary cap amount will probably determine when the deal gets done.

Edited October 10, 2020 by marco102

[marco102]

Dang it.  double post.

Edited October 10, 2020 by marco102

[JTB]

3 hours ago, marco102 said:

I agree that next season is a judgment season for John Collins.  Not in the sense that you do, but the only question about John contributing to winning is if he can play a full season.  John was injured his second year and suspended 25 games his third year.  However, even with shortened seasons he's shown tremendous improvement.  His defense last year was much better than his defense his seond season.  I'm going to love to see how he improves on that end with the addtiion of Capela and I'm sure Schlenk will too.   

same here... I fully expect JC to take steps forward on all phases of his game next season. I think he can achieve whatever he will be asked to do honestly now that we have a reliable center. I also believe he can play a full season no question as he doesn’t have any major injury history for us to worry about.

3 hours ago, marco102 said:

John's actually the perfect compliment to Trae because John doesn't need the ball to contribute 20pts and 10 rebounds.  If you have a ball dominant player and an extremely efficient second option that only needs about 14 shots to get you 22 points a game and is one of the best young rebounders in the game, you're not letting that just walk out the door so easily. 
 

This is one JCs best abilities and if I were GM I would resign JC just based on this but my plan would be to stock up on a good big men rotation  as I said earlier. Schlenk more than likely values this part or Collins game the most if I had to guess followed by being able to finish at the rim efficiently and shoot it efficiently.

3 hours ago, marco102 said:

If the difference between keeping John and letting him walk out the door is about $20 million over the four years, I'll do the deal.

We also need to remember that JC was the 19th pick.  As far as production over three seasons, John's top three in points per game and number one in rebounds per game in his class.  He's number four in winshares and number five in VORP.  He's doing this while being on a losing teams.

I don’t disagree with any of your points. There’s more than enough that can be stated on why Collins deserves and will more than likely get paid the big bucks next offseason....hopefully Schlenk and staff see his values as something long term.

[LucastheThird]

I really don't get this discussion over paying JC. He played at an All-Star level last year and has produced more every year.

7 hours ago, marco102 said:

We also need to remember that JC was the 19th pick.  As far as production over three seasons, John's top three in points per game and number one in rebounds per game in his class.  He's number four in winshares and number five in VORP.  He's doing this while being on a losing teams.

You don't just let that walk out the door like Al and Millsap. If we don't have an equal replacement or better, then we keep JC. Easy as that.

[capstone21]

A pogo stick with boundless energy who compliments Trae so well ... why do we want to let him go?

 

[gurpilo]

I think not resigning Collins would be a major mistake and could put in jeopardy the whole rebuilding process.

Is not that we have cheaper options with same or better production, we have huge problems to attract Free agents, who do you think will come here for less money to replace him? Atlanta can be an appealing team for free agents with Young, Collins, Capela and Cam and Hunter and much less appealing without Collins. I only see a player that could fit better than Collins out there, Christian Wood. He can perhaps be a little bit cheaper but other than him rest of options do not improve Collins production or would not come here.

Not resigning Collins will be also a step backwards, how will Young react? Losing him will inmediatey make us a worst team and could take Young out of Atlanta. Is likely by end of next season we will be a playoff team with huge cap space, low pick and with a huge problem to replace Collins production to keep improving. Very likely it could be just a one season trip to playoffs getting in a position to rebuild again.

I don't know if people realize how hard is going to be to find a player in the legue that can improve Collins and want to come to Atlanta. He is a top offensive player with great fit with Trae and is true he has some flaws deffensively but that is the reason we have Capela. Name players that are better than Collins and want to come here, the list is short for me, Davis, Anteto, Siakam, Zion, Porzingis, Wood, Jaren Jackson Jr and perhaps Isaac but I don't have it very clear, he is very injury prone and is not likely he will achieve the level he is supposed to have. None of these players will come here, the only real chance might be Wood this year. So basically Collins is top 10 at his position now taking into account current and future production. I don't even see a discussion to resign a player of his caliber, just do it.

Edited October 11, 2020 by gurpilo

[kg01]

10 hours ago, capstone21 said:

A pogo stick with boundless energy who compliments Trae so well ... why do we want to let him go?

 

Some people overthink things to try to show how much smarter they are than the rest of us.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, gurpilo said:

I think not resigning Collins would be a major mistake and could put in jeopardy the whole rebuilding process.

Is not that we have cheaper options with same or better production, we have huge problems to attract Free agents, who do you think will come here for less money to replace him? Atlanta can be an appealing team for free agents with Young, Collins, Capela and Cam and Hunter and much less appealing without Collins. I only see a player that could fit better than Collins out there, Christian Wood. He can perhaps be a little bit cheaper but other than him rest of options do not improve Collins production or would not come here.

Not resigning Collins will be also a step backwards, how will Young react? Losing him will inmediatey make us a worst team and could take Young out of Atlanta. Is likely by end of next season we will be a playoff team with huge cap space, low pick and with a huge problem to replace Collins production to keep improving. Very likely it could be just a one season trip to playoffs getting in a position to rebuild again.

I don't know if people realize how hard is going to be to find a player in the legue that can improve Collins and want to come to Atlanta. He is a top offensive player with great fit with Trae and is true he has some flaws deffensively but that is the reason we have Capela. Name players that are better than Collins and want to come here, the list is short for me, Davis, Anteto, Siakam, Zion, Porzingis, Wood, Jaren Jackson Jr and perhaps Isaac but I don't have it very clear, he is very injury prone and is not likely he will achieve the level he is supposed to have. None of these players will come here, the only real chance might be Wood this year. So basically Collins is top 10 at his position now taking into account current and future production. I don't even see a discussion to resign a player of his caliber, just do it.

 

People always have this pipe dream about how we can magically use our "cap space" to attract a max free agent or add vital pieces.  And yet, it never happens.  The best free agent that the Hawks have attracted since after we acquired Joe Johnson, is Paul Millsap. And that's only because he took less money on a very short contract.  No top 15 players have come here.  They don't even consider Atlanta.  So we have no choice but to grow and keep our own.

Here's what baffles me. Our coach has flat out said that we don't run plays for Collins. That he can get 20 points without plays being called for him.  I'm sorry, but that's part of the (( bleeping )) problem.  Why aren't you calling plays for your 2nd best offensive player?  Why aren't you calling plays for a guy who was a high and low post MONSTER in college, that has now expanded his game out to 3 point range? 

Pierce gets FULL CREDIT for developing John as a shooter.  Now it's time to unlock the complete offensive arsenal, even if it means that HE becomes the #1 offensive option on the team.  That HE becomes the Karl Malone / Amare Stoudamire, and Trae Young becomes the high assist version of Steph Curry.

John Collins has already FAR exceeded what scouts thought he could be.  His nbadraft.net comparison was Chris Wilcox and Damian "freakin" Jones.  You believe that (( bleep ))?

The Hawks best stretch of games in the Lloyd Pierce era, occurred from late January - end of March.  The Hawks went 9 - 9 and beat 6 playoff teams.  Here are Collins' numbers:

• 25.3 ppg
• 10.9 rebs
• 65% FG
• 48% 3FG

And for those that try to put on the perception that John isn't as good if Trae isn't playing with him, consider the 2 games during this time frame that Trae was out.

vs the Clippers ( 33 pts - 16 rebs )

 

 

vs the Celtics ( 30 pts - 10 rebs )

 

 

This dude has all the potential in the world as an offensive player.  And if we actually played the right way, he could punish a team trying to play small.  Conversely, we now have the ability to keep him at the 4, and keep the bigger, more rugged guys at the 5.  The next evolution of John as an offensive player, is becoming a better playmaker and doing more by putting the ball on the floor to create offense.

As great as Trae is in the pick and roll, we're not going to be able to rely on that in playoff situations.  Playoff basketball are about guys who can create and make their own shot.  When teams take the ball out of Trae's hands, Collins should be the one that punishes them.

Give this guy the max this year, then max out Trae the next year.  Those are your cornerstones of the franchise.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

 

The Hawks best stretch of games in the Lloyd Pierce era, occurred from late January - end of March February 

 

[Peoriabird]

17 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Here's what baffles me. Our coach has flat out said that we don't run plays for Collins. That he can get 20 points without plays being called for him.  I'm sorry, but that's part of the (( bleeping )) problem.  Why aren't you calling plays for your 2nd best offensive player?  Why aren't you calling plays for a guy who was a high and low post MONSTER in college, that has now expanded his game out to 3 point range? 

 

 

 

 

 

[marco102]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Some people overthink things to try to show how much smarter they are than the rest of us.

To be fair, I think the info he has drives his comments in this thread about JC.  Whenever he doesn't like what he hears he becomes anti John. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 10/9/2020 at 10:29 PM, High5 said:

JC doesn’t strike me as someone who would give a “hometown” discount, but hopefully we’ll get a “Trae Young” discount. It’s unlikely any team trying to sign him will have anyone who can help his game more than Trae does.

The "hometown discount" is only applicable to players who are close to winning a championship, and have already made hundreds of millions of dollars.  And only a few players are willing to do that.

No star player on a losing team should ever take a "hometown discount". And especially a player who haven't received his first big contract.

[NBASupes]

Some of ya'll still attacking me on JC. Not sure why but I should have more new information tomorrow. He said a couple are buzzing but wouldn't tell what is it

[Vol4ever]

And not wanting to pay is one reason the Hawks dont get star players.  Hawks gotta change that mentality.  Pay the man!  

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Some of ya'll still attacking me on JC. Not sure why but I should have more new information tomorrow. He said a couple are buzzing but wouldn't tell what is it

I was told to expect information to start flowing around the 20th...a week or so after the finals end. That lines up with them needing a week or two to settle league business.

[bleachkit]

21 minutes ago, Vol4ever said:

And not wanting to pay is one reason the Hawks dont get star players.  Hawks gotta change that mentality.  Pay the man!  

When you're talking max contract you do have to be careful though.