Official Game Thread: Hawks at Thunder

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

LP isn't the problem silly. John is his own problem. His defense at the 4 isn't good either. It's worse at 4 than at the 5. At the 5 the issue is he's always in foul trouble but truthfully, his defense is better. 

You like LP?  Why do you think that John's defense is worse at the 4?

[terrell]

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

John Collins really isn't that good. His defense is bad and his offense is limited v. quality defenders. Trae setups most of his points anyway. We can get Obi Toppin to do the shit John does plus better defense. 

If this is the case, you think we should put John on the market and see what we can get? Why pay Collins big $, when Toppin or someone similar could be had with the Nets pick?

Edited January 25, 2020 by terrell

[terrell]

49 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

No, but I'd trade anyone else for him, maybe not JC though. But to have a guard with his length and abilities is an amazing luxury.

Lamelo? lol

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, Watchman said:

How about a Jones for Moose trade? 

Love the idea but we know no one will trade for Jones at this point. If he were cut he probably goes to the G-league. Back to your point though I use to make fun of Muscala's physical stature but he can come off the bench and hit from range. Needless to say TS values that stuff now probably more than ever.

[NBASupes]

 

[marco102]

There's a ton of hottaking going on in this thread now. 

Trae's defense by far wasn't as bad as some make it out to be.  The one thing OKL did was make the Hawks pay when Trae was switched onto a bigger player.  When he was guarding guards his defense was better than terrible.

John Collins' defense on bigger players wasn't the problem.  The perimeter defense with SGA lead to John picking up three of his fouls trying to cover for whoever was guarding on the perimeter.   Other than that, John's defense was really good all things considered. Now he was late on some rotations, but all things considered it was good. 

SGA - Kid is a keeper.  Man he's good.  Wouldn't trade any of our young core for him though.  I still think everyone has a ton of potential and I'll be patient with them.  I would add that SGA's offensive impact is no where near Trae's.  He's talented getting to the rack, but his playmaking is no where near the level of Traes.  So I don't get the 10 vs 9 comparison supes.  More like  9 or 10 vs 7 or 8.  

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by marco102

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, terrell said:

Lamelo? lol

Supposedly he can't shoot. Still young though.

[enrique]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Supposedly he can't shoot. Still young though.

He’d fit right in on our squad

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

There's a ton of hottaking going on in this thread now. 

Trae's defense by far wasn't as bad as some make it out to be.  The one thing OKL did was make the Hawks pay when Trae was switched onto a bigger player.  When he was guarding guards his defense was better than terrible.

John Collins' defense on bigger players wasn't the problem.  The perimeter defense with SGA lead to John picking up three of his fouls trying to cover for whoever was guarding on the perimeter.   Other than that, John's defense was really good all things considered. Now he was late on some rotations, but all things considered it was good. 

SGA - Kid is a keeper.  Man he's good.  Wouldn't trade any of our young core for him though.  I still think everyone has a ton of potential and I'll be patient with them.  I would add that SGA's offensive impact is no where near Trae's.  He's talented getting to the rack, but his playmaking is no where near the level of Traes.  So I don't get the 10 vs 9 comparison supes.  More like  9 or 10 vs 7 or 8.  

 

You wouldn't trade any of our core for SGA? It just astonishes me how seemingly intelligent fans cannot see their own biases. If OKC asks for Kevin Heurter in exchange for SGA you make that trade every day of the week. Come on, you cant be serious.

[marco102]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

You wouldn't trade any of our core for SGA? It just astonishes me how seemingly intelligent fans cannot see their own biases. If OKC asks for Kevin Heurter in exchange for SGA you make that trade every day of the week. Come on, you cant be serious.

You get hung up on the smallest things. I would like to ADD SGA to our young core. I don't see the point of trading for him.  Of course he's better than Kevin right now. I said I don't see the point of breaking up the core to get him.   I want the deepest team possible. My goodness man.

Edited January 26, 2020 by marco102

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

You get hung up on the smallest things. I would like to ADD SGA to our young core. I don't see the point of trading for him.  Of course he's better than Kevin right now. I said I don't see the point of breaking up the core to get him.   I want the deepest team possible. My goodness man.

You don't see point of trading a player for a clearly superior player? 

[marco102]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

You don't see point of trading a player for a clearly superior player? 

He's not clearly superior is my point.  SGA can't shoot and isn't as good of a playmaker as Heurter.  He's good at getting to the basket.  What the Hawks need more than anything is shooting and a secondary playmaker.  Kevin does provide that to an extent. 

You are being reactionary and I'm just saying I'd like to see what Heurter is before shipping him off.  SGA would not help the Hawks spacing at all.  There's this thing called fit and even though SGA is a better player than Heurter right now, that does not mean he's a better fit. 

Now if you'd ask me if I'd trade Huerter for Beal. Yes, I would! Because right now, Beal is clearly superior.

Edited January 26, 2020 by marco102

[bleachkit]

10 minutes ago, marco102 said:

He's not clearly superior is my point.  SGA can't shoot and isn't as good of a playmaker as Heurter.  He's good at getting to the basket.  What the Hawks need more than anything is shooting and a secondary playmaker.  Kevin does provide that to an extent. 

You are being reactionary and I'm just saying I'd like to see what Heurter is before shipping him off.  SGA would not help the Hawks spacing at all.  There's this thing called fit and even though SGA is a better player than Heurter right now, that does not mean he's a better fit. 

Now if you'd ask me if I'd trade Huerter for Beal. Yes, I would! Because right now, Beal is clearly superior.

Ok man. You're literally the only person who doesn't make that trade. SGA's length and defense at the guard position is excellent, all while averaging close to 20 points a game. He's also doing it along side Chris Paul, who would pay the Trae role. Let's do a "would you trade Kevin Heurter for SGA" survey, you'll be in minority for sure.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

Ok man. You're literally the only person who doesn't make that trade. SGA's length and defense at the guard position is excellent, all while averaging close to 20 points a game. He's also doing it along side Chris Paul, who would pay the Trae role. Let's do a "would you trade Kevin Heurter for SGA" survey, you'll be in minority for sure.

That's cool.  We all have our preferences. You act like I said I would not trade Huerter for Bradley Beal.  Would SGA's defense look as good on the Hawks? Maybe.  Maybe not.  But his offense def wouldn't look as good with our lack of spacing which Kevin does provide.  

I don't care if I'm in the minority. The Hawks need more shooters, a secondary playmaker, and defense.  The reason our defense sucks so much is because we can't make a damn basket and that leads to fast breaks and players being out of position.

So I ask do you think SGA is a clearly better shooter and playmaker than Heurter? If the answer is no.  Then you should see my point.  I would appreciate his defense on the Hawks and ability to score on the Hawks.  I'm just not giving up one of our best young shooters to do it because that's the one thing we need. 

[Spud2nique]

19 hours ago, NBASupes said:

silly

May I interject here? You wanted to say something else didn’t you.  

[lethalweapon3]

On 1/24/2020 at 5:05 PM, lethalweapon3 said:

“This insurance had better cover white shirts on windshields.”

 

It’s time to make some big changes!

Yes, I am talking to you, State Farm.

Listen, the whole Cliff Paul thing was cute for a minute there. But it is 2020, and nobody is taking Chris Paul’s straight-man “comedy” routine and laughing straight to your friendly neighborhood insurance agent’s office.

The bits you cook up for CP3 are funny. Face it, though, it’s the deer rampaging around garages, the mascot firing off T-shirt cannons in living rooms, the guy wearing khakis, the geckos, woodchucks and camels that elicit hearty guffaws in insurance TV spots. Anyone in or around the National Basketball Association can attest, Christopher is not, and has never been, innately “funny.” Not unless junk-punch gags make you snort a giggle. (I do not recommend laughter anytime Steven Adams is around).

You think the tykes at Nickelodeon’s Kids’ Choice Awards, if they really were given the choice, would have insisted upon Chris Paul to be the NBA star who hosts and reads one-liners off a teleprompter? In 2018? Get real. The kids would rather just let the green slime run the show.

Everybody Tolerates Chris. This was once a young star who steered his way out of the Deep South to get himself to L.A., although not quite in the way he envisioned. Once there, he used his newfound Hollywood connections, his union prez pull after upending Derek Fisher, and the still-spry and legit-funny pair of Blake Griffin and De’Andre Jordan to secure himself some TV bags. Including an insurance ad where the sweater-clad alter-ego became more famous than the player himself.

These days, he’s more renowned for ratting on opponents when they’re supposed to have their shirts tucked in. He’s The Feds at this stage of his career. Seriously, State Farm, you’re asking a guy who’s known for not minding his own business to make you some. What consumer would trust this guy to be Like A Good Neighbor?

CP3’s a long way removed from the nine consecutive years when he was a surefire All-Star. At least for now, he’s a long way removed, geographically, from the bright lights of Hollywood, too. The Clippers drafted Shai Gilgeous-Alexander in 2018 and let Paul walk. Even Houston has since passed him up for an “upgrade” in the form of Russell Westbrook.

Now, as the Atlanta Hawks come to Oklahoma City (8 PM Eastern, Fox Sports Southeast and 92.9 FM in ATL, Fox Sports Oklahoma), Paul is way out here in prairie land, grooming Gilgeous-Alexander for Sam Presti’s cost-cutting Thunder. Reaching age 35 this spring, he’s well-suited for a future selling us all term life insurance and enhancement pills. But it’s time to give Paul the heave-ho, State Farm, and turn to a fresher, fan-friendly face. Like who?

So glad you asked. (Not you, Baze. So sorry.)

You’ve spent truckloads of dinero to swipe Philips’ name off a swanky, newly renovated NBA arena. Why not shift your TV ad campaigns to the fella who casually launches 35-foot bombs from your logo on Atlanta’s arena floor, to the growing joy of millions of insurance-starved fans?

Unlike your current rep, Trae Young’s got charm and charisma for days. Your rep sneers, mocks refs and fake-laughs, while this kid’s biggest crime is flexing with a smile. His enthusiasm is infectious. Just witness the joy “T.Y. Thrill-ton” effused while rocking his red velvet smoking jacket on the sideline, cheering young Brandon Goodwin on to victory in Wednesday night’s stunning late-game thriller over a squad that coincidentally kicked Mr. Paul to the curb. Trae’s already making insurance out of his two-way contractor.

You want to appeal to Middle America? Chris is just in Sooner Country for a minute or two, but Trae has Oklahoma crimson ‘n cream in his veins. Further, peep the newest All-American-born All-Star starter’s bubbly persona daily on social media accounts. Never types a thing that requires an “I wuz hacked!” excuse. Imagine: “Another Day, Another Opportunity (100),” to protect your home and auto from bears!

Oh, and the man CAN ham it up, on the spot. Have you not yet seen him and John Collins reminding us all why Landmark DCJ is The Georgia Giant? Meanwhile, you’re out here trying to sell with an Abbott, when you really need to bring a Costello to the table. I promise you, State Farm, this is not somebody you want to risk losing to Aflac. You’d better get your people in touch with Trae’s people and lock him down, before Flo hits him with a lab coat and a name tag.

How long Paul sticks around OKC depends on what team exec Sam Presti has up his sleeve. A year ago, the Thunder were trying to sustain their rep as The Small Market Club That Could. That could spend big, at least, if not win big, having thrown money at Paul George and Westbrook to back up their commitment to eventual excellence. But after PG requested to buddy up with Kawhi Leonard in La-La-Land, it was Presto-chango time for Sam, whose organization could face a repeater tax bill this season and next, right as they try kickstarting their rebuild.

The plan was to find Paul a new NBA landing spot before this season began. But then, a funny thing happened, and not because some State Farm agent was up in the middle of the night wearing khakis. Paul professed a commitment to stay and mentor SGA (team-high 19.8 PPG, 6.0 RPG), the 6-foot-5 stringbean who starts alongside him. Not only that, but CP3 has taken Dennis Schröder, about as big an afterthought as a flashy young player with funny hair could be in this league, under his wing.

Now Schröder, once a one-trick driving pony as a future All-Star hopeful with the Hawks, is mastering the dark arts of on-ball defense, ranking 4^th in Defensive RPM among NBA starter/rotation PGs (bottom-ten w/ OKC last year, 6^th-worst w/ ATL in 2017-18). Further, the Menace is hitting money jumpshots to win games, as he did from 20 feet out with the 30^th and 31^st point of his barrage in Orlando (10-for-14 2FGs, 3-for-4 3FGs, 9 assists in 33 bench minutes) to dust off the Magic on Wednesday.

I’m comfortable in asserting that this isn’t Thunder coach Billy Donovan’s doing. You can credit assistants an ex-Hawks Mo Cheeks and Mike Wilks, if you must. But it’s the egging from Paul that’s getting through to Dennis and Shai’s noggins. Westbrook, with his triple-double hunts, gave this team an edge every night. But Paul, effectively the head coach for the moment, has spread that vim and vigor across the whole rotation, and it particularly shows up in the second halves.

As noted by Forbes SportsMoney’s Nick Crain this week, CP3 leads the league with 110 clutch-time points, and Gilgeous-Alexander (+70 clutch plus/minus) and Schröder (NBA-best +71 clutch plus/minus) aren’t all that far behind. OKC has been in as many as 31 clutch scenarios all year and have thrived in nearly all of them.

SGA’s ranginess on defense (team-high 12 rebounds, all defensive, @ ORL) allows Donovan to go small-ball at winning time, plugging sharpshooter Danilo Gallinari at power forward alongside Adams (questionable, ankle; Nerlens Noel has been starting in his place) and featuring three guards under 185 pounds (OKC’s top-3 minute-leaders) to ramp up the pressure. In recent games, OKC has been conveniently starting two-way rookie Lugie Dort at the 2-spot, because how this team finishes is proving to be far more important than how they start.

The Thunder have become true League Pass darlings with one thrilling comeback surge after another. Coming back from down 26 to beat the Bulls in mid-December, down 24 just two nights later to get past Memphis. Down 18 four days after that (don’t remind Doc) to beat LA in George’s return to OKC, behind 32 points by former Clipper SGA. Just this week, in Westbrook’s Houston, climbing out from a 17-point third-quarter hole to ground the Rockets.

That’s just scratching the surface of what has been a fun ride for Thunder fans, watching the team slide into a cozy 7-seed spot (26-19, winners of 11 of past 15 and 3 straight) with a reasonable shot at sneaking up to 5^th in the West soon with some favorable games (vs. ATL, CLE, DET; at MIN, SAC, PHX) on the docket. Unfortunately, this is a campaign, and a roster, that might look very different a couple weeks from now.

“Especially as it heads toward a rebuild,” Maddie Lee of The Oklahoman recently suggested, “the Thunder won’t jeopardize its long-term plan for a short-term payoff.” Presti has slashed lots of salary weight to this point, going from tens of millions over the luxury tax level last spring to hardly a million over the top as the calendar turns toward February and the looming trade deadline.

I’d argue, what’s the rush? As far as my Hawks are concerned, we don’t need to see the Thunder back in the playoffs until 2022, when the lottery-protected pick for Menace ‘n Moose comes due. But by this summer, surely there’ll be a taker for Paul’s two years and $85 million remaining (assuming he opts in for 2021-22), Adams’ $27.5 million expiring deal for next season, and certainly Schröder’s $15.5 million, now that he’s becoming a hot commodity. Gallinari’s $22.6 million comes off the books after this season ends.

A simpler dealing away of Noel (set loose the Moose!), Justin Patton, or Slamidou Diallo could be more than enough to evade the repeater tax. Even so, such a penalty under the multiplier won’t be as ginormous as the Thunder once budgeted.

Instead of a drastic, destabilizing February teardown, I’d rather reward the OKC fans by running with this Thunder core into the playoffs, formally hand the leadership keys to Gilgeous-Alexander, then make the tougher player-personnel decisions in June and July. Perhaps some thunderous deals are in the works, and if so, I conjecture it’s to have a trial run, for Presti to see if Donovan and this staff are the right folks to coach up a roster from the ground floor.

For now, though, the Thunder are modeling quite well what a playoff-steeled veteran from Wake Forest, a possible supernova from the 2018 Draft on the rise, and a cat-quick player who’s not chopped liver, could look like while staffing the point guard position on the depth chart. It’s looking like the Hawks have been paying attention.

It is kind of nice to see Atlanta (11-34) cut their two most gaping roster flaws in half. The re-arrival of Jeff Teague (8 assists, 1 TO vs. LAC) and the glorious breakout of Goodwin (17 fourth-quarter points, 3-for-4 3FGs vs. LAC) was a long time coming to address Atlanta’s dire backup situation behind Young (29.2 PPG, 8.6 PG, plus a sturdy 4.7 RPG).

I’d even venture to suggest the Hawks checked off two out of three big boxes, if Wednesday’s lineup shift by coach Lloyd Pierce is an indication he’s no longer requiring De’Andre Hunter and Cam Reddish (minus-9.0 net points per 100 possessions as a two-man unit; 700 minutes together, second among Hawks tandems) to suffer their rookie lumps together.

The third leg on the stool is a starting-caliber center capable of providing steady rim protection and pick-and-roll coverage, allowing John Collins (18.3 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 33-and-16 plus 3 steals vs. LAC; limited sample size, but NBA-best 0.36 PPP on roll-man defense) to become the productive double-double machine and defensive rover the beastly power forward is destined to become.

Having Bruno Fernando and Alex Len (probable, continued back strain) available has been helpful, but the duo would be more valuable as reserves for a more competent contributor at the pivot. Noel (team-high 1.6 BPG in 18.8 MPG; minus-3.9 defended FG% differential; Collins’ minus-6.1 ranks 10^th-best among NBA bigs, Damian Jones’ plus-7.2 the 3^rd-worst), who himself just returned from ankle injury, might fit the bill if the soon-to-be 26-year-old can stay healthy, although it would likely take more than some future-year second-rounder for Hawks GM Travis Schlenk to pry him loose from Presti.

In the meantime, having Teague back in a reserve role to spell Young (available, as per LP, after missing Wednesday’s game with a bruised thigh) will help Atlanta match up with OKC’s backcourt depth and strive to avoid yet another big first-half deficit. Kevin Huerter’s layup to give the Hawks an early 11-4 lead against the Clips could not be followed by another field goal until the final minute of the opening quarter.

Amid that first-quarter funk, Montrezl Harrell entered the game with LA up 22-12 and went unimpeded, scoring 19 of the Clippers’ next 22 points as the visitors’ lead on Wednesday ballooned to 19. The Hawks showed great fight in storming back late to pull off the win, thanks primarily to Goodwin, but OKC (+10.8 4^th-quarter Net Rating; Milwaukee is 2^nd-best at +7.9) is not a team you want far ahead of you deep in the second half.

Staying in front of OKC’s shooters and drivers, again avoiding fouls, will be a defensive priority for Atlanta. Among the biggest shifts for the post-Russ-era Thunder is their eagerness to get back on defense once shots go up.

Last-year’s Thunder cluster amassed an NBA-high 12.6 O-Rebs per contest, ranking third in the league for O-Reb%. This year, even with Adams (3^rd in NBA for O-Reb%) still flailing about, those numbers are down to NBA-lows of 8.3 O-Rebs per game and 19.6 O-Reb%.

Keeping the opponent one-and-done in their halfcourt-heavy offense, while pushing the pace and finishing in transition, will be key for the Hawks to compete tonight, early and often. The Thunder (79.7 FT%, 6^th in NBA) won’t give the Hawks the breaks Harrell and the Clippers offered up (14 missed FTs @ ATL) on Wednesday.

It was wonderful to watch the Young household in Oklahoma, conveniently convening on Thursday evening, as Trae officially earned his first All-Star starting nod (Don’t think he earned it? Rather hand out Lifetime Achievement Awards? Cry about it!). You know what would also be nice to see? Some timely spots during All-Star weekend, as Chris Paul gracefully confers insurance agent Cole Perez to Trae Young as his final "assist." Better yet, just have Trae run into Agent Travis Young, his long-lost geeky twin.

You know what, State Farm marketing department? Some of us don’t have an off-season. The NBA’s All-Star voting fans have spoken -- it’s time for a big change. Get to work!

 

Let’s Go Hawks!

~lw3

Postscript! (and why does this thread feel like eons ago?)

~lw3