Has LP seen the light or

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

Okay. So what leaves you to believe that LP will play Jones more than Bruno when recent trends have shown that Bruno is starting and Jones is coming off the bench when someone is in foul trouble or isn't playing at all?  Jabari plays power forward, Len plays center.  Doesn't seem like there's too much to be worried about if you ask me.  If LP was starting Jones and Bruno was coming off the bench it seems like we should be having that conversation. 

Again, LP is doing exactly what you want by giving Bruno more time.  Why are you complaining now when he's clearly shown that now Bruno is ahead of Jones on the depth charts by starting. 

The proof is in the pudding.  If he wanted to play Jones more when the others are healthy, Jones would be playing more now and starting. 

I asked a simple question. Will he fall back into his old way? And its not just about Jones, its also about starting Collins at the five as well. Its about his rotations in general. We are not going to win a damn thing this year except maybe a better lottery ball. Why play Collins and Hunter out of position if it does not make a difference anyway?

I just want to see him give Fernando a chance and let Collins play his natural position. Parker and Len getting healthy should not impact that; but I fear it will.

[marco102]

9 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I asked a simple question. Will he fall back into his old way? And its not just about Jones, its also about starting Collins at the five as well. Its about his rotations in general. We are not going to win a damn thing this year except maybe a better lottery ball. Why play Collins and Hunter out of position if it does not make a difference anyway?

I just want to see him give Fernando a chance and let Collins play his natural position. Parker and Len getting healthy should not impact that; but I fear it will.

You seem to keep moving this goal post.  First you say you fear Pierce won't play Bruno when Len and Parker are healthy and he'll play Jones or whatever.  

You  also  fear he would play Collins at the 5 instead of Bruno which he obviously did when we had injuries and, believe it or not, that line up actually produced better that what we were previously throwing out there.  The bench just gave it all up.  However, now that Bruno has come back from his personal reason and has been starting even after he had a not so good start one game and still started the next, you are worried for "reasons" that Pierce will move him out of the rotation because of some unfounded fear. 

Again, I just think you are asking questions to ask questions at this point. Pierce has Bruno in the starting line up for the past few games.  Len isn't a starter he comes off the bench, they've discussed this in dept.  Parker wouldn't start over Bruno considering Parker was removed from the starting lineup before his procedure.  Collins is the only threat to moving Bruno to bench, but that wouldn't cut into his playing time too much when considering that Jabari is out for a while and Pierce has already shown that he's willing to start Bruno.  Bruno's been producing and playing well. Doesn't seem like a fear to have when Pierce hasn't benched any starter who's played well yet. If he has please give me an example and I'll shut up.

Edit: I do question some of Pierce rotations.  Don't get me wrong. I just think the Bruno debate is not the debate we should be having.  I'm not too worried about his rotations at the end of the day because he has to experiment to see what's working on a certain night due to the young guys being so inconsistent. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by marco102

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I cannot buy the experience part. LP is hooked on some players. Those players being Bembry, Vince, and Jones. I hope the trend with Jones at least has come to a abrupt stop.

LP is the coach, he should have seen the Jones flub coming a mile away; just from watching them practice every day.

He saw Bruno practice too.

There was an article by Chris Kirchner from The Athletic with the blurb 'players fustrated when Bruno was out of posittion.' Think it was his half season report.

[Buzzard]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

He saw Bruno practice too.

There was an article by Chris Kirchner from The Athletic with the blurb 'players fustrated when Bruno was out of posittion.' Think it was his half season report.

I am sure he was at times. I saw Reddish and Crabbe flubbing around in live games; along with Jones flubbing around to go along with his great per 36 of 13.1 and 7.9

Except for Trae, the whole team was flubbing around for the biggest part of the 1st half of the season.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Buzzard

[marco102]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

I am sure he was at times. I saw Reddish and Crabbe flubbing around in live games; to go along with Jones flubbing around and his great per 36 of 13.1 and 7.9

Except for Trae, the whole team was flubbing around for the biggest part of the 1st half of the season.

Stop this. You know darn well, even when Cam was flubbing around as you put it, he was playing good defense which kept him in the game when his offense was horrible.  Crabbe was out a lot of the beginning of the season and was on a minutes restriction so he could not have been playing too much.  Even then, Crabbe is a vet and had better awareness than Bruno.  This isn't a dis to Bruno at all. He was just young and has shown excellent progression.  I'm not going to get upset with a coach when he's playing a player sparingly then rewards him with more minutes once his production increases. 

Bruno was lost on both ends of the floor at the beginning of the season which is why he wasn't playing as much.  His awareness was horrible.  It's much improved now. He still has little moments, but it's night and day. 

[marco102]

Here's a Bruno update for you @Buzzard

 

[Buzzard]

11 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Stop this. You know darn well, even when Cam was flubbing around as you put it, he was playing good defense which kept him in the game when his offense was horrible.  Crabbe was out a lot of the beginning of the season and was on a minutes restriction so he could not have been playing too much.  Even then, Crabbe is a vet and had better awareness than Bruno.  This isn't a dis to Bruno at all. He was just young and has shown excellent progression.  I'm not going to get upset with a coach when he's playing a player sparingly then rewards him with more minutes once his production increases. 

Bruno was lost on both ends of the floor at the beginning of the season which is why he wasn't playing as much.  His awareness was horrible.  It's much improved now. He still has little moments, but it's night and day. 

Don't take this as I want LP fired; but I do want to see better rotations that do not include Jones, Bembry, and Vince. Notice that does not name Reddish, Hunter. Len, etc...So why are you bringing up players I have not complained about in this thread?

He played Jones over Bruno for absolutely no good reason that anyone on the is board can see. He gave good minutes to Vince at PF for absolutely no good reason anyone on this board can see. Vince even told him in the middle of a game to put someone else in.

If we are going to lose, at least lose with a purpose. Get all the youngsters ready.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Buzzard

[marco102]

12 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I am sure he was at times. I saw Reddish and Crabbe flubbing around in live games; along with Jones flubbing around to go along with his great per 36 of 13.1 and 7.9

Except for Trae, the whole team was flubbing around for the biggest part of the 1st half of the season.

 

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Don't take this as I want LP fired; but I do want to see better rotations that do not include Jones, Bembry, and Vince. Notice that does not name Reddish, Hunter. Len, etc...So why are you bringing up players I have not complained about in this thread?

He played Jones over Bruno for absolutely no good reason that anyone on the is board can see. He gave good minutes to Vince at PF for absolutely no good reason anyone on this board can see. Vince even told him in the middle of a game to put someone else in.

See above.  That's what my response was for. I also agree that VC should not be playing that much and probably won't whenever we get most of the guys healthy, but at one point VC was about the only body we could roll out there due to injury.  

Again, I said I question some of LP's rotations and responded in the edited comment above.  Any way have a good night Buzzard.  I have to finish working before my boss notices I'm not reviewing a file..lol

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

I don't care if they agree or not. The proof is in Jones getting more minutes than Fernando; while he was also playing Vince like he is some kind of real back up power forward.

Hard to play a lot of minutes when you've got 5 fouls in less than 15 minutes of playing time.

[REHawksFan]

This whole argument is ridiculous. It ignores the fact that Bruno had no business getting more than a few minutes a game to start the season. He literally had no idea what he was doing. Or dont yall remember Trae yelling at him on the court for being out of position and generally in the way early on. 

One can say, "well how he gonna learn if not by playing in actual NBA games?" But that question ignores the reality that there were 4 other guys on the court - all further along than Bruno - that were trying to win games early on. LP couldn't just throw Bruno out for 25 min a game to the detriment of the other 4 guys. Bruno has to be at least competent on the court or it isn't productive for him or the other guys to get starter minutes.

Despite what some on this board think, LP knows what he's doing in developing players. And that includes knowing when to increase their PT and when to pull it back. 

[Buzzard]

29 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Despite what some on this board think, LP knows what he's doing in developing players. And that includes knowing when to increase their PT and when to pull it back. 

I hope you are right. My whole point though is why not Fernando over Jones? I do not buy into the argument that Jones is/was better than Fernando at any point this season. From the games I watched, he clearly wasn't. Furthermore Jones has not improved a lick despite getting more minutes.

Jones was a waste of time as far as I am concerned; and he held Fernando back. Vince is a waste of minutes as well but at least the argument applies that he knows positioning on the basketball court; which both Jones ( 3 1/2 years of experience ) and Fernando ( rookie ) were lacking.

If I have to pick my poison, I am picking the player I will be riding with for the next four years. In the case of Jones and Vince ( to a lesser extent ) over Fernando, LP clearly saw things differently.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

33 minutes ago, Watchman said:

Hard to play a lot of minutes when you've got 5 fouls in less than 15 minutes of playing time.

Jones is 6.5 fouls per 36. Fernando is 5.7 fouls per 36.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesda03.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fernabr01.html

Edited January 28, 2020 by Buzzard

[JayBirdHawk]

I have no facts to back this up, but I think LP was reluctant to start Parker and Bruno.

Coincidentally, Bruno got the starting gig 3 games before John's return.

Parker is/was also new to LP's offense and defense, he couldn't direct himself much less Bruno. At least Jones had NBA 'experience'

This all comes back to Collins being an idiot and mucking the season. Parker would have filled his role off the bench, Len may not have lost his starting gig, Vince would see limited minutes and on and on. 

This is entirely mute now, because even when Bruno was out for his personal reasons, we went small with JC at the 5, so there's no reason to think Bruno won't continue to start, backed up by Len if he can stay healthy. Jones in mop up duty in blow outs.

[Buzzard]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This all comes back to Collins being an idiot and mucking the season. Parker would have filled his role off the bench, Len may not have lost his starting gig, Vince would see limited minutes and on and on. 

This is entirely mute now, because even when Bruno was out for his personal reasons, we went small with JC at the 5, so there's no reason to think Bruno won't continue to start, backed up by Len if he can stay healthy. Jones in mop up duty in blow outs.

I remember some of those starts as 6 minute hooks  I hope you are right about Jones. Fernando and Len should be the 20/20 minute guys, Parker when he gets back should be Collins primary back up at power forward.

Even without another trade, we could still end the back half on a positive note.

[JayBirdHawk]

15 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I remember some of those starts as 6 minute hooks  I hope you are right about Jones. Fernando and Len should be the 20/20 minute guys, Parker when he gets back should be Collins primary back up at power forward.

Even without another trade, we could still end the back half on a positive note.

This was my and most fans expectations to start the season.

Parker has played 2 games with JC since his return, totaling 30:14.

Trae, JC, Huerter, Hunter, Reddish, Bruno, Len, Parker, Bembry, Turner, Crabbe all have missed games due to injury, meanwhile Old Man Uncle Vince still chugging along, no missed injury games....UNBELIEVABLE!!!

 

[KB21]

Technically, Jones is a developmental project as well.  They got good minutes out of Alex Len last year in a reserve role.  He hasn’t panned out as a starter, but he has also had some injury issues this year.  

They traded for Jones to see if he could potentially develop into a starting caliber center.  That’s obviously not working out, but what you need to take from their desire to give him a chance is that they definitely want a center with size in that starting position.  They seen Bruno as more of a reserve player going forward, IMO, as they prefer a center with traditional size.  

[macdaddy]

11 hours ago, KB21 said:

Technically, Jones is a developmental project as well.  They got good minutes out of Alex Len last year in a reserve role.  He hasn’t panned out as a starter, but he has also had some injury issues this year.  

They traded for Jones to see if he could potentially develop into a starting caliber center.  That’s obviously not working out, but what you need to take from their desire to give him a chance is that they definitely want a center with size in that starting position.  They seen Bruno as more of a reserve player going forward, IMO, as they prefer a center with traditional size.  

Thank you.  I understand no one believes Jones can be good but maybe the coaches see something worth developing.  As you said he has size going for him.  Dedmon had a similar career path as Jones does so far and folks are begging to bring him back.   And before you say "3 point shot", Dedmon didn't even attempt one in his first 4 nba seasons.

As for Vince, what are our frontcourt options right now?  Bruno and Collins just going to swap back and forth at the 4/5?

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Thank you.  I understand no one believes Jones can be good but maybe the coaches see something worth developing.  As you said he has size going for him.  Dedmon had a similar career path as Jones does so far and folks are begging to bring him back.   And before you say "3 point shot", Dedmon didn't even attempt one in his first 4 nba seasons.

As for Vince, what are our frontcourt options right now?  Bruno and Collins just going to swap back and forth at the 4/5?

I don't see much comparison.  Dedmon got minutes by being a staunch defender and stud rebounder.  His first two seasons he averaged 11.7 and 12.6 rebounds per 36.  Jones is averaging his best rp36 in the last 3 years this season but it is only 7.9 which is less than very non-elite rebounder Jabari Parker.  It goes without saying that Dedmon was a much better defender outside of the rebounding.

While neither guy shot 3's, Dedmon was always much more of a jump shooter.  As a rookie, Dedmon took over 20% of his shots from 10+ feet from the basket.  Jones is shooting only 7% of his shots from there despite our desire to see our big man stretch the floor.

So other than both not doing much into their mid-20's, I see little to no resemblance between them.

I thought Jones was someone GS was happy to throw away when we dealt for him and so I remain underwhelmed by the prospect of him blossoming.  If the coaches see it, then have at it but I'd rather spend the time developing Bruno.

[macdaddy]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't see much comparison.  Dedmon got minutes by being a staunch defender and stud rebounder.  His first two seasons he averaged 11.7 and 12.6 rebounds per 36.  Jones is averaging his best rp36 in the last 3 years this season but it is only 7.9 which is less than very non-elite rebounder Jabari Parker.  It goes without saying that Dedmon was a much better defender outside of the rebounding.

While neither guy shot 3's, Dedmon was always much more of a jump shooter.  As a rookie, Dedmon took over 20% of his shots from 10+ feet from the basket.  Jones is shooting only 7% of his shots from there despite our desire to see our big man stretch the floor.

So other than both not doing much into their mid-20's, I see little to no resemblance between them.

I thought Jones was someone GS was happy to throw away when we dealt for him and so I remain underwhelmed by the prospect of him blossoming.  If the coaches see it, then have at it but I'd rather spend the time developing Bruno.

I guess my only point is that bigs often take longer to develop.  So Jones could become serviceable. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

This whole argument is ridiculous. It ignores the fact that Bruno had no business getting more than a few minutes a game to start the season. He literally had no idea what he was doing. Or dont yall remember Trae yelling at him on the court for being out of position and generally in the way early on. 

One can say, "well how he gonna learn if not by playing in actual NBA games?" But that question ignores the reality that there were 4 other guys on the court - all further along than Bruno - that were trying to win games early on. LP couldn't just throw Bruno out for 25 min a game to the detriment of the other 4 guys. Bruno has to be at least competent on the court or it isn't productive for him or the other guys to get starter minutes.

Despite what some on this board think, LP knows what he's doing in developing players. And that includes knowing when to increase their PT and when to pull it back. 

 

No he doesn't.

It was pretty obvious to me early on that Bruno was more than capable of handling the backup 4 or backup 5 spot.  When Collins got suspended, you'd think that Bruno's time would've naturally increased.  Instead, he gave starter's minutes to Jones ( mainly because he had a stretch in which he was catching Trae's lobs with decent frequency and scoring points. )  And he gave backup PF minutes to Vince.

Even when Bruno may haven been struggling ( or flat out being ignored ) on offense, he still did more of the little things to help the offense than Jones.  I broke all of that down in a post tracking Bruno's assists, which included 11 or 12 three point makes.  Defensively, he was light years better than Jones.  The same went for rebounding.

When you watch those games in November through mid-December, Bruno would literally get pulled out of the game after only 3 minutes on the court, for a turnover or a missed defensive assignment . . . like he was the cause of all of the Hawks woes.

If we want to keep it real, the injuries + the fact that the Hawks were losing at a historic rate, forced LP's hand to at least start Bruno.   Also, regardless of how much validity people put into this stat, he probably couldn't deny that on a team as horrible as the Hawks, Bruno was one of the guys putting up a decent ( +/- ) number.  And the horrible record now makes it easier for him to just throw Bruno out there, because it's not like there's anyone else on the team that will help the Hawks win games.  

How about this for a thought?  Maybe the increased PT for Bruno is an attempt to showcase him to other teams for a possible trade, and not to develop him.