AJC article on Cam's improvement and Vince's role in it---Good Read!!!

[High5]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This was based off of last year's success. Teams have blown up the PnR and forcing John to either create on the block or shoot threes. Neither of which has been effective. 

 

He's scoring more points on better percentages. I'm not sure defenses have blown up his game as much as you believe. 

[AHF]

27 minutes ago, High5 said:

AHF doesn't fall into that camp and I'm sure he wasn't being serious here, but I know some people really believe LP is incapable of immediately recognizing the most basic of mechanical issues. 

Yeah, I was more giving props to some of our posters - most notably @TheNorthCydeRises - who precisely identified this issue with his mechanics very early.  I would hope our coaching staff isn't reading the Squawk for actual coaching advice.  Marketing should read the Squawk to have their finger on the pulse of the core fanbase, not the coaches.

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This was based off of last year's success. Teams have blown up the PnR and forcing John to either create on the block or shoot threes. Neither of which has been effective. 

Defensively, he was protecting himself as the anchor with Jones and Bruno. He would have Bruno and Jones defend on the perimeter while he anchored the paint. It made you feel John made improvements defensively when in reality, he just got himself into foul trouble a lot. 

With Len and Dedmon, it's clear why he struggled so much because those two generally anchor and he can't defend in space. I just don't know how it can be a help to us on that end if Capela and Dedmon are obvious anchors.

I am extremely optimistic on this team but John and I have felt out of favor. I don't see it no more. I still see it for Kevin but as a backup. I still see it with Hunter and likely will till I don't which won't happen till his 3rd year. But John, I don't see it. Harrell needs to replace him. @AHF may push for both but I see the writing on the wall. We can't maintain both long term. Somebody gotta go. 

John has a career high .643% TS% while scoring a career high 20.6 ppg.  What do you expect for him to do to prove he can be effective?

He has literally been the most efficient scorer among all 20+ PPG scorers in the NBA.

http://bkref.com/tiny/B5ooC

The hate is getting unreal here.

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

John has a career high .643% TS% while scoring a career high 20.6 ppg.  What do you expect for him to do to prove he can be effective?

He has literally been the most efficient scorer among all 20+ PPG scorers in the NBA.

http://bkref.com/tiny/B5ooC

The hate is getting unreal here.

Without looking at the list I thought it would be Zion.

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

John has a career high .643% TS% while scoring a career high 20.6 ppg.  What do you expect for him to do to prove he can be effective?

He has literally been the most efficient scorer among all 20+ PPG scorers in the NBA.

http://bkref.com/tiny/B5ooC

The hate is getting unreal here.

He's a movement specialist, those guys always have tremendous TS. 

I will explain all of this later. It's clear I need time to really defend my take. I am on family vacation on Valentine's Date with my wife. Ttyl

[bleachkit]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's a movement specialist, those guys always have tremendous TS. 

I will explain all of this later. It's clear I need time to really defend my take. I am on family vacation on Valentine's Date with my wife. Ttyl

Does your wife share your passion for basketball?

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's a movement specialist, those guys always have tremendous TS. 

I will explain all of this later. It's clear I need time to really defend my take. I am on family vacation on Valentine's Date with my wife. Ttyl

Hope you guys have a great time!

My point is that he is the most effective movement specialist in the entire NBA.  Every other one either scores less or isn't as efficient or both.  We shouldn't pretend like he isn't effective on offense.  You want guys who can score at a high volume with high efficiency and Collins does it without taking points off of the table for others (such as with someone who runs iso's all day and doesn't let the ball move on offense).

[Peoriabird]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's a movement specialist, those guys always have tremendous TS.

I guess I would need a list of the "movement specialist" in the league so I can understand the designation.  Cause right now I am clueless.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

This was based off of last year's success. Teams have blown up the PnR and forcing John to either create on the block or shoot threes. Neither of which has been effective. 

Defensively, he was protecting himself as the anchor with Jones and Bruno. He would have Bruno and Jones defend on the perimeter while he anchored the paint. It made you feel John made improvements defensively when in reality, he just got himself into foul trouble a lot. 

With Len and Dedmon, it's clear why he struggled so much because those two generally anchor and he can't defend in space. I just don't know how it can be a help to us on that end if Capela and Dedmon are obvious anchors.

I am extremely optimistic on this team but John and I have felt out of favor. I don't see it no more. I still see it for Kevin but as a backup. I still see it with Hunter and likely will till I don't which won't happen till his 3rd year. But John, I don't see it. Harrell needs to replace him. @AHF may push for both but I see the writing on the wall. We can't maintain both long term. Somebody gotta go. 

So teams are blowing up the plays he's really good at but he's still finding ways to maintain his scoring and efficiency? I'd call that a great problem to have.

If anything, that puts him in even better light, that he's still finding ways to score despite teams having the book on him and doing it without dominating the ball.

As I and others have said, his defense needs work - but so does the ENTIRE team.

Coach Pierce December 2018 re JC:

Quote

Pierce has told several media outlets recently that he doesn’t call plays for his young star. The statement is grabbing attention as the second-year power forward piles up impressive statistics that include a double-double in eight of his past nine games.

“You guys, the media and the basketball people, you seem to like that quote,” Collins said with a smile when asked about his role in the offense Wednesday.

That doesn’t mean the Hawks offense isn’t designed for Collins. Quite the contrary.

The Hawks have plays that are specific to getting Collins in pick-and-roll situations. That’s where he thrives.

“We are not posting John,” Pierce said. “We need John in pick-and-rolls. I can just call a rub (play). It’s not for John, but it’s for John. He knows that. He understands that. He knows that as soon as he sets the screen and rolls, if they don’t help, the play is for him. 

“If they do help, he’s the assist guy. He’s the dive assist, the screen assist. The things we take merit in, he’s the guy who creates it, but it only happens because it’s John Collins. His dynamic side of rolling in the pick-and-roll is the play. It’s not ‘Hey, run the pick-and-roll and look for John.’”

Pierce then recounted a typical conversation with Collins. You figure it’s been had on numerous occasions.

Pierce: “John, what do we do with the switch?” Collins: “Punish them.”

 

But like you've said...you've moved on from John and moved on to your Harrell kick. So have at it!

[Peoriabird]

Still waiting for someone to explain what a movement specialist is with a list players that fall in that category!

[Buzzard]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Still waiting for someone to explain what a movement specialist is with a list players that fall in that category!

The only guess I have is players who move without the ball then get it and score off the assist. Otherwise, I am lost as well.

[Peoriabird]

18 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

The only guess I have is players who move without the ball then get it and score off the assist. Otherwise, I am lost as well.

That's like 80-90% of  NBA players

[marco102]

I can't believe Supes picked THIS hill to die on!  My goodness!

It's cool though Supes.  We still here for you fam.

[High5]

39 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I can't believe Supes picked THIS hill to die on!  My goodness!

It's cool though Supes.  We still here for you fam.

Supes has hunkered down on like 12 different hills. And they all involve Karl Malone for some reason.

Edited February 15, 2020 by High5

[Cwell]

Well this thread got hijacked smh

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, marco102 said:

I can't believe Supes picked THIS hill to die on!  My goodness!

It's cool though Supes.  We still here for you fam.

It took me awhile but @Plainview1981 been constantly on the boat that Collins and Trae can't win together effectively. 

While I've notice John's flaws, I would always say, John offensive is just to valuable, we can win regardless if his defense at the 4 is garbage. 

Watching the Cleveland game was just more of what I knew and it wasn't like I haven't been thinking it. 

Collins is a Zach LaVine type impact wise. You can't win with him being a non-top 3 option but you can't win with him on the court with one other weak defender. John like Trae has to be protected. That's why I said recently, my hope is Sheed Wallace but Sheed had a 7'4 wingspan. He also had a stronger natural frame. John is a tweener.

It's tough. I really think he would be great in Utah where he is the missing piece or even Golden State playing the small ball 5. He could be the starter on a championship team with those teams. Like Josh Smith in his prime, there was like one situation like with Cleveland that could work but it was such a tough piece to fit. 

Even Trae is a tough piece to build a championship around but I believe you can do it. With John, it's harder, it's a perfect storm type of thing.

I should have been more clear. I feel like guys in here are making it look like John is a scrub when he's not. He's just a scrub on defense and needs to be in the ideal situation on both ends. Trae and him, like Trae and Kevin work offensively but defensively, it's a natural mess just like it's beautiful on offense at times.

Damian Jones has proved to me Trae needs rim runners who set great screens more than PnR targets although both work for him. It's too easy to blow up the PnR. 

As for @Buzzard, a movement player is an offensive player who has tremendous natural movement on the court and gets themselves into scoring positions by their movement skills. 

Klay, Brandon Clarke, Shawn Marion, DMC, Al Horford, Karl Malone, John Collins, Kyle Korver, DMC, Richard Jefferson, Steph Curry, and Reggie Miller are just names of few. Most perimeter movement players have movement prongs. 

Movement prongs are in 4s. Almost all movement players have high movement BBIQ. 

1. Speed 

2. Agility

3. Strength

4. Stamina

The best have 3 to 4 prongs. The very best like Klay and Steph have 4 prongs. Movement players are naturally efficient. They can score without plays being draw for them. They find themselves in natural scoring positions and find holes in the defense to attack. They offer a lot of offensive value. 

They are some of my favorite players. It's no surprise John over the years has been one of my favorite Hawks. My issue is, I have moved from what Hawks I enjoy the most. I want to win titles now. We got a chance, I really want the org to get it right.

[NBASupes]

13 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

That's like 80-90% of  NBA players

Stupid ass take. Lack of understanding on this board is insane. I am not saying John is trash now, I simply don't think you can win a title with him and on the average contender, he would be a 6th man.

[NBASupes]

Before someone ask, no, Damian Jones does not set good screens, but Capela does and that might be more valuable for Trae

[Peoriabird]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

It took me awhile but @Plainview1981 been constantly on the boat that Collins and Trae can't win together effectively. 

While I've notice John's flaws, I would always say, John offensive is just to valuable, we can win regardless if his defense at the 4 is garbage. 

Watching the Cleveland game was just more of what I knew and it wasn't like I haven't been thinking it. 

Collins is a Zach LaVine type impact wise. You can't win with him being a non-top 3 option but you can't win with him on the court with one other weak defender. John like Trae has to be protected. That's why I said recently, my hope is Sheed Wallace but Sheed had a 7'4 wingspan. He also had a stronger natural frame. John is a tweener.

It's tough. I really think he would be great in Utah where he is the missing piece or even Golden State playing the small ball 5. He could be the starter on a championship team with those teams. Like Josh Smith in his prime, there was like one situation like with Cleveland that could work but it was such a tough piece to fit. 

Even Trae is a tough piece to build a championship around but I believe you can do it. With John, it's harder, it's a perfect storm type of thing.

I should have been more clear. I feel like guys in here are making it look like John is a scrub when he's not. He's just a scrub on defense and needs to be in the ideal situation on both ends. Trae and him, like Trae and Kevin work offensively but defensively, it's a natural mess just like it's beautiful on offense at times.

Damian Jones has proved to me Trae needs rim runners who set great screens more than PnR targets although both work for him. It's too easy to blow up the PnR. 

As for @Buzzard, a movement player is an offensive player who has tremendous natural movement on the court and gets themselves into scoring positions by their movement skills. 

Klay, Brandon Clarke, Shawn Marion, DMC, Al Horford, Karl Malone, John Collins, Kyle Korver, DMC, Richard Jefferson, Steph Curry, and Reggie Miller are just names of few. Most perimeter movement players have movement prongs. 

Movement prongs are in 4s. Almost all movement players have high movement BBIQ. 

1. Speed 

2. Agility

3. Strength

4. Stamina

The best have 3 to 4 prongs. The very best like Klay and Steph have 4 prongs. Movement players are naturally efficient. They can score without plays being draw for them. They find themselves in natural scoring positions and find holes in the defense to attack. They offer a lot of offensive value. 

They are some of my favorite players. It's no surprise John over the years has been one of my favorite Hawks. My issue is, I have moved from what Hawks I enjoy the most. I want to win titles now. We got a chance, I really want the org to get it right.

I'm going to have to ask @AHF to unpack this for me because I am an incapable...I know my limitations

[nathan2331]

You can win games with Trae and John. What isn't gonna win games is playing them next to two rookies on the wing and Damian Jones. Collins can become a good defender despite his limitations. If Reddish and Hunter develop the way we hope, along with Capela we'd have 3 plus defenders for sure and a Collins who hopefully becomes at least average.

 

Our biggest problem right now is the fact that we currently have a defense that doesn't communicate well, leading to players constantly getting open. Add on top of that an error-prone offense that creates the third-most transition opportunities for our opponents, and that's why we look so bad constantly. We're an easy team to score on because we don't execute on a consistent basis. Time will help the team improve. I know why expectations were higher for the team, but watching the games the vets we brought in couldn't contribute. If we sign 3 vets that can actually play, I'm sure we'll be winning games next year.