Collins has to PROVE more! Sorry but the clock starts now...

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, High5 said:

I really don't have a problem with Supes taking a rather tame shot at me. I give him crap all the time for what I feel are silly posts. He's stepped way more over the line with what he's been saying to Buzzard lately lol. 

Obviously, barring a clash of a egos, signing Harrell to back up John would make us a better team next season. But 1) I don't think that's the best use of our resources and 2) that wasn't what the discussion was about. It was about Capela + Harrell instead of John, which, IMO, would be a much worse combination on offense. Any defensive advantages would still add up to a net loss. 

 

You took a shot at me with the, you think John sucks. I don't think John sucks at all. Why would you say that? I think John is one of our best players. 2nd best at the moment. Why would I think he sucks?

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

How? 

LP system is heavy PnR based. Both players are great screeners. We had Jabari Parker who is similar to Harrell without the PnR ability and he has off the wall offensive metrics with our offense. He's still in the top 10 of OBPM. He was 3rd for most of the year. 

You keep saying this but it's not true. 

Mostly because neither Capela nor Harrell can shoot the ball from the perimeter.  Pierce doesn’t operate his offense with two roll guys going to the rim along with the ball handler.  He also stresses shooting the three point shot with essentially every position.  

There is a better chance that a Collins/Capela pairing works out better on offense because John can actually space the floor the in the corners some.  

Remember, we are not talking about a coaching savant here with Lloyd Pierce.  We had a coaching savant in Bud, but now we just have a process guy.

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

@AHF, I don't think John sucks. This was that trying to be slick bullshit to belittle my take because I don't see John the way he does.

I get the frustration of feeling like someone is putting words in your mouth but we need posters not to devolve into name calling when that happens.  Like you and Buzzard were going back and forth over the weekend and he responded to a similar situation where he felt like you were misrepresenting what he had said by referencing his original post and trying to clarify his position.  

This isn't unique to you.  The whole "address the post, not the poster" thing applies to everyone.  No formal warning here or anything but don't want to see us go down an ugly road of debating which posters are smart or understand the game, etc.  Let me know if you feel like anyone is crossing a line towards you in these debates.  You are right that advocating for trading JC is going to draw a lot of attention from other posters, including ones who normally agree with you.

Hopefully we can all go back and forth on this stuff while treating each other's views sincerely and enjoy some good Hawks talk.  

 

[NBASupes]

@High5 and @Buzzard, I'll be more respectful next time and be more understanding of your feelings, truce? 

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Mostly because neither Capela nor Harrell can shoot the ball from the perimeter.  Pierce doesn’t operate his offense with two roll guys going to the rim along with the ball handler.  He also stresses shooting the three point shot with essentially every position.  

There is a better chance that a Collins/Capela pairing works out better on offense because John can actually space the floor the in the corners some.  

Remember, we are not talking about a coaching savant here with Lloyd Pierce.  We had a coaching savant in Bud, but now we just have a process guy.

We know Harrell is capable of shooting threes. He has done it in the Drew League. In our system, we will give him the chance. 

Also, our system has had non space guys in Jones and Parker. Neither of them are PnR guys or screen setting bigs. Our system would benefit all four of these bigs. Trae, Cam, and Kevin will benefit from them 

I see LP in a much higher light than you. LP can and will make this work

Edited February 17, 2020 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

10 hours ago, High5 said:

I have my doubts about John getting a huge extension, but I would take him over Harrell in a heartbeat.

I would be surprised if JC gets a max extension. I just don't see it.

His max is 25% of the cap...I see him landing in the 18-20% range for his contract depending on how his season ends.

Siakam and Murray were the only 2 players last year than got max/close to max deals.

Sabonis and J Brown didn't. Siakam's playoff explosion got him that deal.

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We know Harrell is capable of shooting threes. He has done it in the Drew League. In our system, we will give him the chance. 

Also, our system has had non space guys in Jones and Parker. Neither of them are PnR guys or screen setting bigs. Our system would benefit all four of these bigs. Trae, Cam, and Kevin will benefit from them 

I see LP in a much higher light than you. LP can and will make this work

The Drew League?  That’s about as translatable to the NBA as AAU basketball is.  Harrell has shot 48 three point shots in his NBA career.  He’s made 5 of them.  You put Harrell and Capela on the court together, teams are going to sag their defense into the paint and dare the Hawks to beat them from the perimeter.  

To add, there is absolutely no evidence that Lloyd PIerce can take a guy like Montrezl Harrell and improve his shooting to the point where it is a weapon.  LIke I said earlier, I’d be more on board with it if we had Bud or a Bud protege coaching the team, because I would have faith that Bud could not only maximize what Harrell does best but also help improve an area of his game that is a clear weakness right now.

I’d absolutely love the combo on the defensive end.  It would bring back visions of Millsap and Horford playing defense in Bud’s system.  

[High5]

49 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You took a shot at me with the, you think John sucks. I don't think John sucks at all. Why would you say that? I think John is one of our best players. 2nd best at the moment. Why would I think he sucks?

Here are a few comments from the past week:

Quote

Collins is a movement player, that's all he is. 

You can't win with him.

Quote

He's really the biggest reason why we are losing. 

Quote

Collins is rubbish

I didn't pull that idea out of thin air. You're all over the place in your commentary so it's hard to keep track of where you stand at any given moment. 

[JayBirdHawk]

33 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We know Harrell is capable of shooting threes. He has done it in the Drew League. In our system, we will give him the chance. 

Also, our system has had non space guys in Jones and Parker. Neither of them are PnR guys or screen setting bigs. Our system would benefit all four of these bigs. Trae, Cam, and Kevin will benefit from them 

I see LP in a much higher light than you. LP can and will make this work

Drew League??? Seriously - you're siting the Drew League to say he's capable of shooting 3s??? I'm capable of shooting 3s doesn't mean I'll make any of them.

5/48 over his 5 year NBA career, a whopping 10.4%

John tripled that amount as a rookie. Not everyone is made to shoot 3s.

You saw what our offense looked like without JC and with Parker and Jones, so don't use that as....look we had none-space guys - it was AWFUL.

[High5]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I would be surprised if JC gets a max extension. I just don't see it.

His max is 25% of the cap...I see him landing in the 18-20% range for his contract depending on how his season ends.

Siakam and Murray were the only 2 players last year than got max/close to max deals.

Sabonis and J Brown didn't. Siakam's playoff explosion got him that deal.

I don't know what he's going to get. There is such a range in the extensions Sabonis, Brown, and Murray signed, but I feel like they're all on a similar level as players. We haven't seen Schlenk negotiate a big contract yet. 

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, High5 said:

I don't know what he's going to get. There is such a range in the extensions Sabonis, Brown, and Murray signed, but I feel like they're all on a similar level as players. We haven't seen Schlenk negotiate a big contract yet. 

At the projected $115 mil salary cap:

25% max starts at $28.75 mil

20% = $23 mil

18% = %20 mil

That's why I said I see JC between 18%-20% If he maintains his 20/10 nimbers and improves his defense over the last 26 games. If Hawks don't pay some other team will next season.

One area I think will improve is his passing, I can see some hi/lo passing with Capela.

[High5]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

At the projected $115 mil salary cap:

25% max starts at $28.75 mil

20% = $23 mil

18% = %20 mil

That's why I said I see JC between 18%-20% If he maintains his 20/10 nimbers and improves his defense over the last 26 games. If Hawks don't pay some other team will next season.

One area I think will improve is his passing, I can see some hi/lo passing with Capela.

We'll see. He spooked me once he started talking about wanting to sign a contract like Siakam's (I know he's not going to get that). I feel like that 20% would probably be the best case scenario for us.  

[terrell]

19 hours ago, KB21 said:

Justin Holiday and Jae Crowder would help this team win more now than any of the three younger guys.

Idk about that. Crowder is shooting 38% from the field and 29% from 3..He aint helping us much offensively.

And Holiday can shoot 3's, but he's a downgrade defensively..

Id take them off the bench though...

Edited February 17, 2020 by terrell

[JayBirdHawk]

30 minutes ago, High5 said:

We'll see. He spooked me once he started talking about wanting to sign a contract like Siakam's (I know he's not going to get that). I feel like that 20% would probably be the best case scenario for us.  

I never get spooked by this stuff, the Hawks either pay it or don't and live with it (then we can all bitch about it one way or the other ).

JC said seeing what Siakam got, motivated him to stay in the gym (though he didn't say he'd help himself to some banned stuff ) when you consider their offensive outputs. Siakam's defense also is head and shoulders above JC plus showing up big in the playoffs pushed Siakam's value up.

[terrell]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

I personally believe that when Lloyd is shown the door, Travis should be shown the door as well.

Whos next? Trae? lol. If you get rid of Travis so soon, youre pretty much saying he blew his picks right? And Trae is the head of the snake..This is why there is NO way in hell they get rid of Schlenk after Traes 3rd season. LP will go 1st..

Edited February 17, 2020 by terrell

[Buzzard]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

@High5 and @Buzzard, I'll be more respectful next time and be more understanding of your feelings, truce? 

I am pretty thick skinned Supes but I do not come here to be badgered with cuss words. Its a waste of time for me. I have much better things to do with it.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Buzzard

[JayBirdHawk]

This is a good read on the Collins/Capela pairing.

 

Quote

There are three key reasons I believe Collins can work as the power forward. The first one relates to the sheer gravity of Young. Teams have to commit to him near the logo, which naturally creates more space than a point guard like Russell Westbrook or Chris Paul would create. This leaves room for two smart rollers to work in tandem to generate offense, providing the team plays at pace.

 

The second one relates to Capela’s roll gravity and the continued development of Kevin Huerter and Cam Reddish. It suggests that Collins has a clear path to getting more space on the perimeter. Jones admittedly did have pretty good roll gravity, ranking in the 96th percentile with nearly 35% of his overall plays coming with him as the roll-man. But Capela offers more on the defensive end which means he can stay on the court for longer than 15 minutes a game. This ability from Capela to pull help defenders into the paint should lead to more open looks for John Collins on the perimeter, as opposed to him having to take late shot-clock attempts out of drive-and-kick situations.

The third reason I believe he can work is based more on projection, but is arguably the most important factor. If the Hawks want Collins to work with a rim runner, then he needs to be utilized as a mismatch attacker, in an almost instant offense type role from the elbows and from the perimeter. There are signs he should be able to do this, but it is up to the Hawks to give him touches and keep him involved in the set plays. If they just run a four-out offense with him standing in the corner, then he will obviously not be optimized and this won’t work.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

Hunter, Capela, Collins could eventually give us a front line that just destroys teams. Hunter improves his D; and keeps shooting that three ball and hitting the boards like he has been, I think its only a matter of time.

[JayBirdHawk]