sturt

Jalen Rose opines that we're going to need another head coach to lead across the Jordan

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Where will the young core be next year?  "On the team".  That's not really physic but do very much agree with Jalen on that. My young core is definitely larger than his take in that it includes all six kids but do believe they indeed all will be here next year. 

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Statistically, this team should be awful but since the Teague trade, we should be competitive which we have been for the most part. 

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19 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Statistically, this team should be awful but since the Teague trade, we should be competitive which we have been for the most part. 

I don't call getting blown out by a team that had just lost 10 games in a row competitive.

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Well, I told you guys the reason he was hired in the first place was to absorb losses.  

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1. Just because Jalen Rose says something, that's not on its own a convincing thing. It's interesting. But it's not convincing.

2. Pierce was hired to develop players, having gained a widely-held belief across the league that he was really good at it... and particularly so where defense is concerned.

3. Pierce has proven to me to be a better head coach than I anticipated him being. He is more cerebral than I'd anticipated, and he talks like I'd expect a coach with 10 years experience to talk, so he's that articulate.

4. This team got much younger this season. And that, on purpose. So the writing was on the wall with regard to who was getting minutes this season, and the growing pains that would necessarily ensue.

5. Anyone who thought the team would excel was just a Hawks pollyanna. Even to be as good as last season, Schlenk's FA acquisitions were almost all going to have to outplay any of their most recent seasons... oh... and... John Collins would have to not be suspended for 25 games.

6. I'm not at all disappointed in the record, given #1 - #5.

7. Once Capela steps on the floor, that will be a bookmark on this season... and simultaneously, a bookmark on the Pierce era. At that point, I for one need to begin seeing a trend that gets us out of the bottom 20% of the league in terms of vital stats like opponents' FG%.

So, in sum, I think Jalen's not a particularly informed judge. I'm not persuaded he's paying that close attention to what's going on, given that he thought we still had the worst record in the NBA. He's jumping ahead, before the evidence becomes clear one way or the other. We're really only now transitioning to a place where the results can be taken to be meaningful. And I don't even barely believe that Pierce would be replaced over the off-season.

I do, however, think he'll begin to be seriously held accountable next season, and worst case scenario, we could have someone else in that seat this time next season.... by the same token, best case, he may be getting the same kind of regard that Bud had achieved after 2.5 seasons in ATL.

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Where is the evidence that players are actually developing under his coaching or because of his coaching?  What player/players have been signed from other teams have gotten better in Atlanta because of the coaching they are getting?

I ask this, because this was ROUTINE under Mike Budenholzer.  

Lloyd Pierce’s reputation as a player developer is largely overblown.  He’s here because he is willing to play young players rather than coach to win.  

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Asking "where is the evidence" is no different than asking "where isn't the difference."

There is such a thing as intangibles, such a thing as non-quantitatives (because they're subjective), and such a thing as unknowables (because those things are only observable with hidden mics and cams, or first-hand visuals on the practice courts).

Comparing this ultra-young team's development to the development of players in a system where there are veterans in front of them is nonsense. Two different environments. Totally.

Sometimes it's almost embarrassing to even dignify an Eeyorric comment with a response, it really is.

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1 minute ago, sturt said:

Asking "where is the evidence" is no different than asking "where isn't the difference."

There is such a thing as intangibles, such a thing as non-quantitatives (because they're subjective), and such a thing as unknowables (because those things are only observable with hidden mics and cams, or first-hand visuals).

Comparing this ultra-young team's development to the development of players in a system where there are veterans in front of them is nonsense. Two different environments. Totally.

Sometimes it's almost embarrassing to even dignify an Eeyorric comment with a response, it really is.

So, you can’t show me where Lloyd Pierce’s coaching is making players better.

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The players aren't getting better under him.  Players showed progress under Bud and you dont see that with Pierce.   Jalen isn't the only folks around the league thinking this.  

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It might very well go this way, especially if you think the young guys like Collins and Trae are just improving because young players have to improve. 

I don't think we can confirm or deny yet. 

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1 hour ago, KB21 said:

So, you can’t show me where Lloyd Pierce’s coaching is making players better.

Seems you didn't read what I wrote, or there would have been an actual counterpoint instead of just repeating yourself.

Let me see if I can make it simpler... I couldn't show you where anyone's coaching would make players better. Or worse, or the same. And neither could you. Better, worse, or the same.

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1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

The players aren't getting better under him.  Players showed progress under Bud and you dont see that with Pierce.

1. There is no denying that Trae is better than last year.

2. There is no denying that Reddish has been on a steady incline from month to month.

3. And an objective person still  can't conclude that that progress is attributable to Pierce.

4. And an objective person, for the same reasons, can't conclude what regress is attributable to Pierce.

5. No way to compare coaches between (a) an environment where you're fielding a team that is a buyer at the deadline, headed toward a seed somewhere in the playoffs and (b) a team that is in the midst of a complete rebuild.

Completely different environments.

 

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5 minutes ago, sturt said:

Seems you didn't read what I wrote, or there would have been an actual counterpoint instead of just repeating yourself.

Let me see if I can make it simpler... I couldn't show you where anyone's coaching would make players better. Or worse, or the same. And neither could you. Better, worse, or the same.

Yeah.  I read it, and it’s a complete nonsense statement.  Mike Budenholzer took over a team coached by Jason Kidd that won 42 and 44 games in the two seasons prior to Bud.  In his first year, he wins 60 with essentially the same roster.  He makes players better.  Hawks University was all about Mike Budenholzer and his player developmental system.  Kent Bazemore, Paul Millsap, DeMarre Carroll, Tim Hardaway Jr...etc, were all graduates of Hawks University.  

It should be pretty clear that what was going on with Hawks University is no longer happening in Atlanta.  Heck, Bud is the coach that unlocked Dedmon’s ability to shoot the basketball.  

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22 minutes ago, sturt said:

1. There is no denying that Trae is better than last year.

2. There is no denying that Reddish has been on a steady incline from month to month.

3. And an objective person still  can't conclude that that progress is attributable to Pierce.

4. And an objective person, for the same reasons, can't conclude what regress is attributable to Pierce.

5. No way to compare coaches between (a) an environment where you're fielding a team that is a buyer at the deadline, headed toward a seed somewhere in the playoffs and (b) a team that is in the midst of a complete rebuild.

Completely different environments.

 

Trae is a star it doesn't apply and besides Trae is not a fan of LP.  

 

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15 minutes ago, KB21 said:

 In his first year, he wins 60 with essentially the same roster.  He makes players better.

Let's assume you're right.

I mean, since everyone prior to Bud getting there thought all of that roster had stagnated at-best, right? *rolls eyes* They were never going to improve without Bud. *rolls eyes*

But let's do assume you're right.

There remains the problem that one can't compare the two environments.

Not that reason matters. You get a position and dig-in. So the counterpoint is not really for you, but for others who might read this thread.

 

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