Jalen Rose opines that we're going to need another head coach to lead across the Jordan

[kg01]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

You don't know what you are talking about Supes.

Drew won 44 games with Horford, Smith, Teague, Korver, Lou, and Devin Harris top 6 guys.

Bud won 38 games with Horford, Smith, Teague, Korver, Lou, and DMC  as his top 6 guys.

That is a complete teardown.  What team could survive without Devin Harris?  

I blame ya'll for engaging with that guy and his clearly nonsensical, biased rhetoric.

[sturt]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Danny Ferry wasn't stupid enough to tear it all down.  Despite the fact that Pierce has been in charge of a tanking situation, the player development has still not been there.  

So, you agree that Ferry didn't tear it all down.

And, I take the inference to be that Schlenk did tear it all down.

So, you're saying you see a difference between those two sets of circumstances.

Hey. It's a start.

Doubt you're willing to acknowledge the implication of that to your argument that you can compare player development based on the results under Bud with player development based on the results under Pierce... because you defend your arguments to their death, and long after they've died.

 

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, sturt said:

So, you agree that Ferry didn't tear it all down.

And, I take the inference to be that Schlenk did tear it all down.

So, you're saying you see a difference between those two sets of circumstances.

Hey. It's a start.

Doubt you're willing to acknowledge the implication of that to your argument that you can compare player development based on the results under Bud with player development based on the results under Pierce... because you defend your arguments to their death, and long after they've died.

 

I'm not going to absolve Lloyd Pierce of his lack of player development simply because of the situation he came into.  Lloyd Pierce isn't in the same stratosphere as Mike Budenholzer when it comes to being a head coach, and he's also substandard when compared to Budenholzer as a player development coach.  

[NBASupes]

Just now, KB21 said:

I'm not going to absolve Lloyd Pierce of his lack of player development simply because of the situation he came into.  Lloyd Pierce isn't in the same stratosphere as Mike Budenholzer when it comes to being a head coach, and he's also substandard when compared to Budenholzer as a player development coach.  

Hyperbole

[Thomas]

10 minutes ago, sturt said:

So, you agree that Ferry didn't tear it all down.

And, I take the inference to be that Schlenk did tear it all down.

So, you're saying you see a difference between those two sets of circumstances.

Hey. It's a start.

Well done sir.

[AHF]

I do agree with KB that LP has no case for being in the same class of coach as Bud as of today.  If you are a fan of LP, then I would say that the analogy is a comparison of Cam Reddish (LP) versus Paul George.  LP should have a longer runway to catch up but they aren't close today and LP could improve a lot and never get to Bud's level (as a coach not as a President of Basketball Ops).  

[sturt]

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

I'm not going to absolve Lloyd Pierce of his lack of player development simply because of the situation he came into. 

 

 

That's a dodge. And not a clever one.

Repeating yourself in some other words does not a counterpoint make.

The question was and remains can you merely ascend to the reality that one cannot legitimately "absolve his lack of" nor "advocate his excellence in" on the basis of a convoluted comparison i.e., between two head coaches who had two very different environments dictating the likelihood of wins instead of losses and good team and individual player statistics instead of bad ones (ie, "results").

Answer: No.

Honestly, it's like trying to reason with a teenager sometimes, so oblivious to how paper-thin his logic is showing in contrast to how thick and bloated his ego is showing, as he desperately argues for his prejudiced (not in a racial way, but in the pure sense of the term) ill-supported conclusion.

[sturt]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I do agree with KB that LP has no case for being in the same class of coach as Bud as of today.

That's skewing that discussion, though.

Eeyore's point was that Bud is a better developer of talent.

We know approximately how good of a developer of talent Bud was/is.

The jury is still out on how good a developer of talent LP is. We simply don't have enough information yet, but Eeyore is saying "what more information do you need?"

He's wrong.

I know it's just the nice guy in you trying to come out, but please don't look for ways to humor him. There's nothing productive or beneficial to come of it.

The two coaches "aren't close today" largely as a function of the fact that the two have operated inside of two very different environments. Apples meet oranges.

[AHF]

I’m not comparing their records when I say that. Bud has shown himself to be one of the handful of best coaches in the league.  Not among the top tier guys who have done more but in that next group.  That is based on what he has done with his best teams but also what he did with more mediocre squads in terms of instilling discipline and functional schemes.  
 

As for his ability to develop talent, he has a much better track record with vets who stepped up their game under him than he does young players.  Who is the best young player he developed?  Schröder?  Jenkins?  Payne? THJr?  
 

Eh.

[KB21]

6 hours ago, sturt said:

 

 

That's a dodge. And not a clever one.

Repeating yourself in some other words does not a counterpoint make.

The question was and remains can you merely ascend to the reality that one cannot legitimately "absolve his lack of" nor "advocate his excellence in" on the basis of a convoluted comparison i.e., between two head coaches who had two very different environments dictating the likelihood of wins instead of losses and good team and individual player statistics instead of bad ones (ie, "results").

Answer: No.

Honestly, it's like trying to reason with a teenager sometimes, so oblivious to how paper-thin his logic is showing in contrast to how thick and bloated his ego is showing, as he desperately argues for his prejudiced (not in a racial way, but in the pure sense of the term) ill-supported conclusion.

It’s not a dodge.  It’s the truth, as is everything I have ever said about this entire process of intentionally being bad to be good down the road.  

If he were developing the talent on this team, then the team would be better than it currently is.  

Pierce’s priorities with coaching are in the wrong spot.  

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I’m not comparing their records when I say that. Bud has shown himself to be one of the handful of best coaches in the league.  Not among the top tier guys who have done more but in that next group.  That is based on what he has done with his best teams but also what he did with more mediocre squads in terms of instilling discipline and functional schemes.  
 

As for his ability to develop talent, he has a much better track record with vets who stepped up their game under him than he does young players.  Who is the best young player he developed?  Schröder?  Jenkins?  Payne? THJr?  
 

Eh.

@KB21

[RedDawg#8]

Ahem... short term memory around these parts huh?

lest we forget the Masterful Coaching Guru, Coach Bud only won 24 games with a much more experienced roster than this back in 2018. And that was with him actually trying to win games against the agenda of the front office.

Pierce walked in to Atlanta as a rookie head coach presented with way more youth forced to play significant minutes and still won 29 games. 

If you are hell bent on criticizing LP and the rebuild then you got to blame Bud too by your standards. This is Pierce’s 2nd year ever as a head coach and the roster has gotten even younger than last year, yet it’s still possible we could finish with a better record than almighty Buds last season in Atlanta.

And I dare someone try to convince me Bud had less  to work with when he still had several of his guys in the lineup (Dennis, Baze, Prince, Moose, Delaney, Bellineli, Dedmon, Illysova) and he had rookie JC but restricted his playing time in favor of vets. AND STILL LOST more games than Pierce.

Dont let him fool you now that he ran off to coach Giannis. He couldn’t do jack squat with a young team either

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by RedDawg#8

[RedDawg#8]

KB loves pointing out that we are in year 3 of the rebuild (we aren’t) but wants us to forget that year 1 (by his math) came under coach Bud and not Coach Pierce.

The rest of us know the truth. 2017-18 (Buds last year) was the tear down. 
2018-19, LP’s 1st year, was the actual beginning of the rebuild. But not even fully as we still were stripping fat from the previous regime and replacing it with rookies and bad contracts who intentionally weren’t meant to play. 

LP is 1.5 years into his tenure with us. His core players are 1.5 years OR LESS into learning his system. Many of his core players are really just trying to learn how to be professionals let alone how to win yet.

As bad as it’s been we are actually still ahead of schedule, with legit building blocks and nothing but time to watch them grow. 

 

[sturt]

10 hours ago, KB21 said:

If he were developing the talent on this team, then the team would be better than it currently is.

 

Says you.

Maybe you're right. Maybe you're wrong. You, like anyone else, are welcome to your opinion. What's ridiculous is that someone who otherwise presents himself as an intelligent person is so allergic to acknowledging we can't actually objectively measure Pierce's player development success/failure to any legitimate degree without more time and more evidence.

 

[KB21]

7 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Ahem... short term memory around these parts huh?

lest we forget the Masterful Coaching Guru, Coach Bud only won 24 games with a much more experienced roster than this back in 2018. And that was with him actually trying to win games against the agenda of the front office.

Pierce walked in to Atlanta as a rookie head coach presented with way more youth forced to play significant minutes and still won 29 games. 

If you are hell bent on criticizing LP and the rebuild then you got to blame Bud too by your standards. This is Pierce’s 2nd year ever as a head coach and the roster has gotten even younger than last year, yet it’s still possible we could finish with a better record than almighty Buds last season in Atlanta.

And I dare someone try to convince me Bud had less  to work with when he still had several of his guys in the lineup (Dennis, Baze, Prince, Moose, Delaney, Bellineli, Dedmon, Illysova) and he had rookie JC but restricted his playing time in favor of vets. AND STILL LOST more games than Pierce.

Dont let him fool you now that he ran off to coach Giannis. He couldn’t do jack squat with a young team either

 

 

 

This is revisionist history at its best.  The roster Bud had to deal with in his last year was pure crap.  To top it off, management was doing everything in their power to oppose Bud's desire to try and win games that season.  The fact that his last team won 24 games is truly a testament to the masterful job he did with what he had been given by this incompetent front office.  

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This is revisionist history at its best.  The roster Bud had to deal with in his last year was pure crap.  To top it off, management was doing everything in their power to oppose Bud's desire to try and win games that season.  The fact that his last team won 24 games is truly a testament to the masterful job he did with what he had been given by this incompetent front office.  

Your brain must be hurting from the cognitive dissonance on this one.  He was handed a crap roster.  So was LP.  Both lost a lot of games.  You can praise bud Bud for trying to win.  You can question whether LP has actually tried to win.  At the end of the day, with crap rosters both guys have had results that are pretty comparable.  This is not shocking.  Roster built to lose games lose games.

[sturt]

7 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

LP is 1.5 years into his tenure with us. His core players are 1.5 years OR LESS into learning his system. Many of his core players are really just trying to learn how to be professionals let alone how to win yet.

As bad as it’s been we are actually still ahead of schedule, with legit building blocks and nothing but time to watch them grow. 

I don't know about "ahead of schedule," because, again, who's really to say what on-schedule would look like, right?

But I agree with the rest for sure.

We've really been fortunate, in fact, when you consider Collins dropped to #19, and when you consider that Trae has, indeed, turned out to be all that we could realistically hope.

But there's a whole lot that rides on this last half of this season, moves yet to be made in the off-season, and the first half of next season. To the point of Pierce's player development talent here, we'll have a pretty good picture this time next year.

[Buzzard]

8 minutes ago, sturt said:

But there's a whole lot that rides on this last half of this season, moves yet to be made in the off-season, and the first half of next season. To the point of Pierce's player development talent here, we'll have a pretty good picture this time next year.

If we go 5 and 15 to start next season, I'd not be surprised if LP is replaced. I have a coach in mind, unfortunately they are on another teams staff and I think the interview process to get them would require at least three candidates.

[NBASupes]

Thank goodness the Hawks like LP more than some you so called fans do. 

[sturt]

24 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

If we go 5 and 15 to start next season

That's way too quick, imo. Granted, that would be a trajectory that would get that conversation started. But I'm pretty certain he gets the full first half of next season, and really, as long as we're in playoff contention at the AS break, I think he gets the full year for sure.