Coronavirus!

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[macdaddy]

I honestly don't understand.  Some folks are livid that we took measures to slow the spread and it had an adverse affect on the economy but seems like the same people refuse to wear masks.  When wearing masks is one of the most important steps we can take to successfully get the economy going again.  It ain't that hard.

[thecampster]

57 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I honestly don't understand.  Some folks are livid that we took measures to slow the spread and it had an adverse affect on the economy but seems like the same people refuse to wear masks.  When wearing masks is one of the most important steps we can take to successfully get the economy going again.  It ain't that hard.

Its a chicken and the egg argument.

On one hand you say, it doesn't matter if we slow the spread if everyone goes bankrupt and is killing themselves, starving, etc. Lets keep doing what we're doing, speed up the spread, accept the losses and move on. Especially for people on the lower end of the economic scale or who are small business owners, closing up shop/not going to work is devastating. its every bit as scary as the virus. Their mindset is better off dead than dead broke. Don't argue with it, accept it as their mindset. They have every bit the right to that mindset that you do.

On the other hand, the mindset is, it doesn't matter if you're poor if you're dead. This is the less risk averse people who say, we'll straighten it out later. I (and it sounds like you) fall into this category. But to be fair Mac, I make a good living and can work from home. I might have a different opinion if the rent was due and I was out of bread, milk and cheese.

These people are of the mindset that death rates among people under 65 are much lower. They are willing to take the risk to save their lively hood and business. It isn't "wrong" per say, its just different. Convoluted, yes. but everyone's priorities are subject to their situation. gotta think 3rd level on this.

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Its a chicken and the egg argument.

On one hand you say, it doesn't matter if we slow the spread if everyone goes bankrupt and is killing themselves, starving, etc. Lets keep doing what we're doing, speed up the spread, accept the losses and move on. Especially for people on the lower end of the economic scale or who are small business owners, closing up shop/not going to work is devastating. its every bit as scary as the virus. Their mindset is better off dead than dead broke. Don't argue with it, accept it as their mindset. They have every bit the right to that mindset that you do.

On the other hand, the mindset is, it doesn't matter if you're poor if you're dead. This is the less risk averse people who say, we'll straighten it out later. I (and it sounds like you) fall into this category. But to be fair Mac, I make a good living and can work from home. I might have a different opinion if the rent was due and I was out of bread, milk and cheese.

These people are of the mindset that death rates among people under 65 are much lower. They are willing to take the risk to save their lively hood and business. It isn't "wrong" per say, its just different. Convoluted, yes. but everyone's priorities are subject to their situation. gotta think 3rd level on this.

Totally don't understand.  Wearing a mask isn't about protecting yourself.  It's about protecting everyone around you and keeping the infection rate low.   And wearing masks is one of the things that will allow people to get out and shop and do the things that support the economy.  I'm just not seeing a valid argument against it other than it's become some kind of political statement to not do it.    

 

[thecampster]

7 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Totally don't understand.  Wearing a mask isn't about protecting yourself.  It's about protecting everyone around you and keeping the infection rate low.   And wearing masks is one of the things that will allow people to get out and shop and do the things that support the economy.  I'm just not seeing a valid argument against it other than it's become some kind of political statement to not do it.    

 

Because you aren't trying. They are of the mindset that the faster this thing spreads, the faster it goes away.  Which by the way is true, the carnage is just greater.

 

[macdaddy]

8 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Because you aren't trying. They are of the mindset that the faster this thing spreads, the faster it goes away.  Which by the way is true, the carnage is just greater.

 

Ok.  So the mindset is "I don't care if my actions result in the deaths of lots of other people"?   That's really great.  And by the way it's not guaranteed.  Right now immunity from having the virus is very much up in the air.  

[thecampster]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Ok.  So the mindset is "I don't care if my actions result in the deaths of lots of other people"?   That's really great.  And by the way it's not guaranteed.  Right now immunity from having the virus is very much up in the air.  

Realize that most of the people of this mindset also were told if we didn't stop global warming that Philadelphia would be beach front property by 2020, that killer bees were going to kill us all by 2003 and that Roswell New Mexico was just a weather balloon (okay threw that last one in for fun). Seriously though. Its chicken little syndrome. Sky is falling all their lives and poof, no sky...they aren't running when you point out the ball of flashing light with a trail headed right for them. In order to get this, you must first understand we have been lied to before by politicians to further other agendas. Take global warming in an attempt to move us off of fossil fuels and middle east dependence. Is there some truth to the science, yes. But the whole, change it all now or we're all under water by 2020 (yes that was the original demarcation point) was just hysterics to create the incentive to buy in. There was other incentive as well, (remember this is coming from a guy who drives 2 electric cars and is mid home remodel, solar panel install) in the form of US businesses heavily invested in wind solar and the rare earth metal trade (have to create enough "want" to make mining in central/south america viable financially). 

We've been told every lie in the book the last 40 years (from both parties) in order to move public policy. So excuse people who are skeptical when they are told that something they can't see and hasn't affected them yet is going to wipe out a business they've building for 20 years.  Is it misplaced this time...oh heavens yes....but its not born out of exclusive crazy. There is reasoning behind it.

Especially rural sympathetic folks are really tired of city folks running their lives. They're easily the most skeptical, but many suburbanites are born and bred from that same people. Their skepticism is real and not 100% crazy. I disagree with them, but I get where they are coming from.

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Realize that most of the people of this mindset also were told if we didn't stop global warming that Philadelphia would be beach front property by 2020, that killer bees were going to kill us all by 2003 and that Roswell New Mexico was just a weather balloon (okay threw that last one in for fun). Seriously though. Its chicken little syndrome. Sky is falling all their lives and poof, no sky...they aren't running when you point out the ball of flashing light with a trail headed right for them. In order to get this, you must first understand we have been lied to before by politicians to further other agendas. Take global warming in an attempt to move us off of fossil fuels and middle east dependence. Is there some truth to the science, yes. But the whole, change it all now or we're all under water by 2020 (yes that was the original demarcation point) was just hysterics to create the incentive to buy in. There was other incentive as well, (remember this is coming from a guy who drives 2 electric cars and is mid home remodel, solar panel install) in the form of US businesses heavily invested in wind solar and the rare earth metal trade (have to create enough "want" to make mining in central/south america viable financially). 

We've been told every lie in the book the last 40 years (from both parties) in order to move public policy. So excuse people who are skeptical when they are told that something they can't see and hasn't affected them yet is going to wipe out a business they've building for 20 years.  Is it misplaced this time...oh heavens yes....but its not born out of exclusive crazy. There is reasoning behind it.

Especially rural sympathetic folks are really tired of city folks running their lives. They're easily the most skeptical, but many suburbanites are born and bred from that same people. Their skepticism is real and not 100% crazy. I disagree with them, but I get where they are coming from.

That's not reasoning.   It's the opposite.  No one would ever do anything if that's their reasoning.   In fact what is really happening is the opposite.  People are getting the message that it's ok to not wear masks and not only that it's ok but it proves you are of a certain ilk.  So they are following that message (despite as you say being lied to before).  This is bleeding into politics so i won't say anymore in this thread. 

But my point is this is simple, takes no real effort or expense, is proven, and achieves the goals that everyone is purporting to support.  Yet people don't do it.   You know i don't even have an issue if people want to walk around outside without one.  But if they are going to get on a plane or go to a grocery store and pitch a fit because it's required then it's just absurd.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

Realize that most of the people of this mindset also were told if we didn't stop global warming that Philadelphia would be beach front property by 2020, that killer bees were going to kill us all by 2003 and that Roswell New Mexico was just a weather balloon (okay threw that last one in for fun). Seriously though. Its chicken little syndrome. Sky is falling all their lives and poof, no sky...they aren't running when you point out the ball of flashing light with a trail headed right for them. In order to get this, you must first understand we have been lied to before by politicians to further other agendas. Take global warming in an attempt to move us off of fossil fuels and middle east dependence. Is there some truth to the science, yes. But the whole, change it all now or we're all under water by 2020 (yes that was the original demarcation point) was just hysterics to create the incentive to buy in. There was other incentive as well, (remember this is coming from a guy who drives 2 electric cars and is mid home remodel, solar panel install) in the form of US businesses heavily invested in wind solar and the rare earth metal trade (have to create enough "want" to make mining in central/south america viable financially). 

We've been told every lie in the book the last 40 years (from both parties) in order to move public policy. So excuse people who are skeptical when they are told that something they can't see and hasn't affected them yet is going to wipe out a business they've building for 20 years.  Is it misplaced this time...oh heavens yes....but its not born out of exclusive crazy. There is reasoning behind it.

Especially rural sympathetic folks are really tired of city folks running their lives. They're easily the most skeptical, but many suburbanites are born and bred from that same people. Their skepticism is real and not 100% crazy. I disagree with them, but I get where they are coming from.

As an added bonus, let me take you down coronavirus-conspiracy lane for a second. Have you noticed this virus seems to favor killing old people and minorities? That the government was way too quick to divert attention from it being manmade, even though ample evidence existed that it was. Did you notice how convenient it was that it came from pretty much the exact suspected area you would suspect this kind of thing. That it got loose in china and was snuffed out quick but moved overseas?

Now take a second and wonder how this would affect money.  There are in excess of 100,000 deaths in the US now (118,000) and over 80% of those deaths are people over the age of 65 (the portion of the population that has the most stagnant wealth, consume the most medical resources and produce the least economically speaking).  Assuming for a second that the 100,000 ish old people who have died already were all on Social Security and had a modest $10,000 shared wealth each (some owned houses, stocks, etc...you get the drift). you just witnessed a billion dollars in wealth transferred in 3 months from that alone. A good part of which the government gets a small slice of and if each person was collecting $1200/month in SSI and another $1000/month in health benefits, you just cleared up $200 million in government payouts monthly. Additionally, the inheritance would go to the hands of people who would more than likely spend it (see last months bump in retail spending) or had to spend it on funeral arrangements. Although the short term hit to businesses has affected social security in the short run, the long term ramifications could literally save the program.

Many countries have similar programs to SSI. India has one, China takes care of all of its residents.  Now consider China and India. They live in a perpetual food crisis. Their old folks make up 15% of the population but produce almost none of the resources and wealth. In my estimation (okay the internet), 15.2% of the US population is over the age of 65. This virus has already killed 100k. Total US elderly population is 45 million. That means its already killed 1 in every 450 old people....chew on that for a minute and its effects on government healthcare/SSI.  If allowed to run rampant, you could see deaths in the elderly population (of which one is my mother) in the millions. Ya, I think it could have been man made...especially coming from China. Usually following the money is true. 

Now given what I just said, think about the other factors like people refusing to wear masks.

[AHF]

If the argument is that people are deliberately not wearing masks in order to euthanize the elderly and lower long terms costs then that only applies to the people at the top sending the (at best) mixed messages.  Maybe Trump has deliberately decided to do this for the reasons you are suggesting but I'm not at all there in thinking his anti-mask messaging (mostly through refusing to wear one and particularly in spaces where they are required for others) is a deliberate effort to kill the elderly and reduce our long-term social obligations.  I have my list of issues with his leadership and behavior but I'm not to a place quite that dark and cynical.

I certainly don't think that is the case for run-of-the-mill people who refuse to wear a mask as a political statement.  In the short term, it does nothing to help most businesses and limits their clientele.  This isn't a tough issue.  Places like Hong Kong were able to keep up a much more normal pace of economic activity due to their embracing of wearing masks.  

Should have been the simplest message in the world to say:  "Be a patriot.  If  you care anything about your fellow Americans, do the right thing and wear a mask."  Should have been completely apolitical to do this.

 

(As an aside, I don't think inheritance has much to do with overall retail spending.  The large sums of cash being transferred through inheritance every year go to people who are generally already wealthy and spend a much smaller % of their wealth on retail items.)

 

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

In the short term, it does nothing to help most businesses and limits their clientele.

This is what i'm trying to say.  IF you care about the economy, even if you don't care about fellow human beings, then you should wear.  Because there are a bunch of people not going out because they know there are non-masked folks walking around the stores.

 

[AHF]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

This is what i'm trying to say.  IF you care about the economy, even if you don't care about fellow human beings, then you should wear.  Because there are a bunch of people not going out because they know there are non-masked folks walking around the stores.

 

It is callous and the height of selfishness to say the least to not wear one.  The only thing I'll say in defense is that I think a lot of people who don't wear them have taken in so many lies and so much misinformation that they believe some combination of (a) the coronavirus is a hoax and therefore no one is being put at risk; (b) wearing the mask only protects the wearer and so it is a personal decision; and (c) by not wearing a mask they are promoting freedom and the American way.  It boggles the mind.

[AHF]

Quote

White House press secretary Kayleigh McEnany said Friday that she would be among the administration officials attending President Trump’s reelection rally in Tulsa, Okla., on Saturday, but she will not be wearing a mask recommended to help stop the spread of COVID-19.

“It’s a personal choice. I won’t be wearing a mask and I can’t speak for my colleagues,” McEnany said of her plans.

When people say it is a personal decision that really sets me off.  It is not like wearing a bullet proof vest or a seat belt where you only put yourself at risk.  It is like peeing on someone and then saying, "it's a personal decision - I can pee on whoever I want."  

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

 

 

2nd Wave?? We haven't even gotten past the 1st wave yet.

[thecampster]

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

That's not reasoning.   It's the opposite.  No one would ever do anything if that's their reasoning.   In fact what is really happening is the opposite.  People are getting the message that it's ok to not wear masks and not only that it's ok but it proves you are of a certain ilk.  So they are following that message (despite as you say being lied to before).  This is bleeding into politics so i won't say anymore in this thread. 

But my point is this is simple, takes no real effort or expense, is proven, and achieves the goals that everyone is purporting to support.  Yet people don't do it.   You know i don't even have an issue if people want to walk around outside without one.  But if they are going to get on a plane or go to a grocery store and pitch a fit because it's required then it's just absurd.

Consider the "its my body" argument. They have a right to go out and use the public space, so do you. So by what right do you have the right to tell them how to enter that space.

 

See, that's how they are seeing it (and me by the way). I am not willing to yield my rights to freedom of movement to you because you hold fear. Just because I'm not wearing a mask (actually constitutional theory as its been applied and not reality) doesn't mean I can't enter a space. Now if the store has that policy, in my worldview, I respect the right of the store to operate their business how they see fit and I would tell anyone else, that is their property and they can put in that policy. Never go there again if it offends you and the court of the public opinion will see if the policy is fair or not (ie...are they in business next month). But what I don't subscribe to is customer X wants to get into customer Z's face because they don't have a mask on. If you are in a store that doesn't require it, keep your fat trap shut. You have no right what to tell that person to do in a public space. Its their body, their choice. You have a choice to go to another store if it bother's you. Talk to corporate and request that policy, start a petition but if you get in my face in the store and tell me to put a mask on and try to shame me publicly, I'm within my rights to insult you, your family, your life choice and your choice of shoes.

By what right does a person have to try and dictate what I do in a shared public space? It is no different than someone coming to you and telling you to stop smoking in public, stop drinking or to accept Jesus. 

If you feel strongly about it, try to change the law...you'll lose but give it a shot. Most of these restrictive policies are getting challenged in court these days and eventually are going to lose if they're found to be exclusionary. Its a slippery slope.
 

[JayBirdHawk]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105

[thecampster]

IMHO, I don't get people flaunting things but if you come out to Paulding, 90% of people aren't wearing one. Its barely hit Paulding County. 

[JayBirdHawk]

7 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I honestly don't understand.  Some folks are livid that we took measures to slow the spread and it had an adverse affect on the economy but seems like the same people refuse to wear masks.  When wearing masks is one of the most important steps we can take to successfully get the economy going again.  It ain't that hard.

Well, this was supposed to be much ado about nothing back in February, but yet here we are, 4 months later 100,000+ deaths and counting, now the whole to not wear a mask or not has been turned into a political issue and not a health and safety issue. I did find this funny though:

 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

Did anyone have cellphone disruption earlier this week?

My cousin sent me this today, and I was skeptical.

 

 

But I checked my phone...this is what I got: what about yours?

 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

Consider the "its my body" argument. They have a right to go out and use the public space, so do you. So by what right do you have the right to tell them how to enter that space.

 

See, that's how they are seeing it (and me by the way). I am not willing to yield my rights to freedom of movement to you because you hold fear. Just because I'm not wearing a mask (actually constitutional theory as its been applied and not reality) doesn't mean I can't enter a space. Now if the store has that policy, in my worldview, I respect the right of the store to operate their business how they see fit and I would tell anyone else, that is their property and they can put in that policy. Never go there again if it offends you and the court of the public opinion will see if the policy is fair or not (ie...are they in business next month). But what I don't subscribe to is customer X wants to get into customer Z's face because they don't have a mask on. If you are in a store that doesn't require it, keep your fat trap shut. You have no right what to tell that person to do in a public space. Its their body, their choice. You have a choice to go to another store if it bother's you. Talk to corporate and request that policy, start a petition but if you get in my face in the store and tell me to put a mask on and try to shame me publicly, I'm within my rights to insult you, your family, your life choice and your choice of shoes.

By what right does a person have to try and dictate what I do in a shared public space? It is no different than someone coming to you and telling you to stop smoking in public, stop drinking or to accept Jesus. 

If you feel strongly about it, try to change the law...you'll lose but give it a shot. Most of these restrictive policies are getting challenged in court these days and eventually are going to lose if they're found to be exclusionary. Its a slippery slope.
 

Right.  It's my body so I'll piss on you.  %*%& your health.  I won't be inconvenienced.  That's why I don't put a seatbelt on my child and nobody better tell me different.  My choice even though my choice affects your health.

Again this isn't about accepting jesus or stopping drinking or anything.  It is a choice that impacts others without their consent just like pissing on them.

Weak leadership caused this attitude.  No other country thinks it is patriotic to endanger the lives of their fellow citizens.  And nobody who is out there not wearing a mask should have the slightest bit of confidence that they aren't an asymptomatic carrier.  Unless you are locked away from the world, you can't know.  But you choose to expose others to that risk.

Definition of selfishness.