JayBirdHawk

Coronavirus!

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2 hours ago, lethalweapon3 said:

For our Office and Retail Business-Owner Squawkers, an advisory to watch out for these lovely flyers and cards from No-Mask barging would-be customers.

(Americans with "Disability" (sp.) Act, is kind of a giveaway. Despite the fancy-schmancy RWB eagle graphic, "FTBA" is not some Federal enforcement agency but a Facebook novelty.) 

news.online.exemptioncards.6-23.png

https://www.ada.gov/covid-19_flyer_alert.html?fbclid=IwAR2GDFoIJcwo5djxkrbB-v-eA1ROlaIfcgum8hAX7k1DodID55npTMZFZN8

 

 

~lw3

Is true though. Made up, sure, but still holds truth. Not exactly sure on the fining but if I had a business and a customer came in with a service dog with a proper vest and such, I'd let it ride. You don't wanna be the guy forcing the asthmatic to mask up while climbing stairs, pushing a cart or carrying packages.

 

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If 1000 people who intend to go into public spaces and who they think they aren't asymptomatic carriers decide that they just aren't going to wear a mask there will be a mix of results.  Likely the majority will be correct that they aren't carriers.  Those people will simply take on a higher risk that they will be exposed.  If they end up exposed, they can certainly make that risk assumption for themselves (although a high % will end up exposing others, at least including the people who live with them).  However, there will be a material number who are carriers.  The 1000 people making that decision won't know which ones are right and which are wrong.  They will all assume they are right but some will be wrong.

They ones who are wrong will then go out into public places and a subset of those will dangerously expose others to the illness.  Some will be able to maintain good social distancing but anyone who has been through a store, even in off-peak hours, knows that can't be guaranteed.  A % of those people exposed by these carriers will become infected and then continue to spread the illness.  This will directly affect (for example a 70 year old who is exposed) or indirectly affect (for example exposing a low risk child who brings it home to their mother with breast cancer) high risk people who become infected and need to receive medical treatment with some of those people dying.

This is about making that decision to risk exposing others without their consent.  This is not about choosing to wear or not wear a bullet proof vest where the person making that decision is the only one bearing the risk.  Deciding not to wear a mask means you are deciding to put others at risk.  Since no one knows for sure if they are a carrier, anyone going within infectious range of other people without a mask is playing Russian roulette but also pointing that gun at the people around them. 

We are sitting at a little over 124,000 lost Americans right now and it is the decisions that each of us make that will influence how many more lives are affected.  Beyond the health risks, businesses will continue to suffer due to people knowing they cannot safely enter public businesses due to people refusing to wear masks and/or abide by social distancing.

While the medical statistics aren't precise on the efficacy of masks, the numbers are stark in terms of the impact on transmission and the ability of populations to return to a sense of 'normalcy' when they wear masks versus when they don't.  

BBC Report for Reference

Why we should all be wearing face masks

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200504-coronavirus-what-is-the-best-kind-of-face-mask

(Obviously, my posts on here right now are as an individual and not in any way moderating)

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https://community.aafa.org/blog/what-people-with-asthma-need-to-know-about-face-masks-and-coverings-during-the-covid-19-pandemic

 

As usual people are using every edge case to try to justify doing the wrong thing for some pointless reason.   Whatever though.  I'm tired of trying to convince people that they could do something that requires almost no effort to help their fellow human being.   Some folks just don't believe in that.   I tried to convince folks that wearing masks was the best thing we could do to help the economy but for some reason the same people don't like that either.   

There is no good reason not to have a mask on for 99% of the people out there.  Yeah it's not the law but i guarantee when it is in some places people still won't do it in the name of 'freedom' or some conspiracy theory.   Not true you say??

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

There is no good reason not to have a mask on for 99% of the people out there.  Yeah it's not the law but i guarantee when it is in some places people still won't do it in the name of 'freedom' or some conspiracy theory.   Not true you say??

You know why. Cuz everything has to “feel good”  and “be comfy” these days for all these people. In my day we followed the rules of common sense and tried to help our fellow citizen. 
 

Now it’s just confusing. I personally wear a mask and try as best to stay 6 feet away. Maybe I’m an idiot for doing that, who knows.

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Peer pressure vs the value of human life? We have ventured into Bill O'Reilly's ugly turf now. "Folks on their last leg" stuff and all. The greater good has always been lost on "some" no matter how intelligent or especially how much they pat themselves on the back. 

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7 hours ago, thecampster said:

Is true though. Made up, sure, but still holds truth. Not exactly sure on the fining but if I had a business and a customer came in with a service dog with a proper vest and such, I'd let it ride. You don't wanna be the guy forcing the asthmatic to mask up while climbing stairs, pushing a cart or carrying packages.

 

The 'truthiness' of the scheme is what the schemers are banking on: that businesses will capitulate and play along with every "but *I'm( protected by Federal law!", in effect exploiting the legal protections for those with legitimate disabilities. 

In fact, the 'truth' is the businesses are protected themselves with what's known in ADA law as 'reasonable accommodation'. As long as your enterprise makes a reasonable attempt to accommodate, say, the customer with the service dog or breathing apparatus, you're operating within the letter and spirit of the law, regardless as to whether the customer's needs can be fully met. The folks cobbling this scheme together, even if legitimately disabled, if they were caught using DOJ logos and snatched up, the Feds will make "reasonable accommodations" in the pen for both them and Fido The Trusty Service Dog.

ADA, thankfully, doesn't need an amendment to deal with the wrath of The Rona, or any pandemic or public health emergency that comes down the pike. Under "General Requirements", here is the "Direct Threat" rule regarding the extent of responsibility for agencies and businesses (I believe minimum 15+ employees? I forget the applicability.) providing public accommodations. It offers businesses reasonable latitude to determine how best to accommodate persons with disabilities, if at all, to the extent needed for the business to protect the health and safety of others (including fellow employees and other patrons).

~lw3

 

Quote

 

(a) This part does not require a public accommodation to permit an individual to participate in or benefit from the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages and accommodations of that public accommodation when that individual poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.

(b) In determining whether an individual poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others, a public accommodation must make an individualized assessment, based on reasonable judgment that relies on current medical knowledge or on the best available objective evidence, to ascertain: The nature, duration, and severity of the risk; the probability that the potential injury will actually occur; and whether reasonable modifications of policies, practices, or procedures or the provision of auxiliary aids or services will mitigate the risk.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

You know why. Cuz everything has to “feel good”  and “be comfy” these days for all these people. In my day we followed the rules of common sense and tried to help our fellow citizen. 
 

Now it’s just confusing. I personally wear a mask and try as best to stay 6 feet away. Maybe I’m an idiot for doing that, who knows.

I try to stay away from people in general.

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It's old news (early April) but I didn't want to let slide our condolences to one of Atlanta's drive-time sports talk radio legends.

~lw3

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8 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I missed your writing!

When I saw this I immediately rushed for my hot cocoa lw3 game thread gear ⚙️
 

Captain cappuccino 😆 I’ve had some people kinda enter my “safe zone” and it’s kinda freaked me out. 
 

I wasn’t ready for it but some guy tried to shake my hand the other day 🤝 and I looked like I’d scene a ghost 👻.

 

My parents are all over the internet as well lw3 and I have to hear the most wild stories ever. The other day my dad is showing me a YouTube video of a lion and a cat playing around and I had to tell him it wasn’t a real video. 🤦‍♀️ 
 

Lets just day I have my own TMZ type news feed. 😃 

 

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27 minutes ago, lethalweapon3 said:

re-tie my shoes

The lesson we learn here is just go! Forget the tying, matter of fact forget the shoe 👟 you’ll get another. Just run 🏃‍♀️ .

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Thanks lw3 for doing your part to stop the madness.   I love how masks supposedly let the virus through but manage to be an absolute roadblock against co2. That Bill Gates really is an evil genius.  

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19 hours ago, thecampster said:

and that right there is the infringement.  You're applying social pressure, believing you have a right to influence me in the public space. Shaming me is the exact worse way to get my cooperation. See, you're pushing past the very core of what I'm saying because you know its right. You wanna make it a law, so be it. You bend it against the court of public opinion. I'm okay with that. But you start thinking you have the right to tell others how to behave, what risks to take, etc because it fits your own personal morality, then we have a problem. I said the exact same thing to Bleachkit and he's on the other side of the issue. I don't want him forcing his morality on me and I don't wanna force mine on him. I don't want him forcing a state open too early and I don't want you restricting personal freedom in the public space. You're gonna hate this, but I'm in the middle on this. I'm the centrist......which is weird for me, trust me.

I'm just being honest. It's disappointing to hear someone say they refuse to wear a mask during a pandemic because they simply don't want to. It seems that you care more about your pride and taking some stance against "social pressures" than the risk of spreading the virus. I think that attitude is far more dangerous than what you're complaining about, but you are free to do as you like. And I'm free to look at you sideways the same way I do for people who leave the restroom without washing their hands. 

Edited by High5
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58 minutes ago, High5 said:

I'm just being honest. It's disappointing to hear someone say they refuse to wear a mask during a pandemic because they simply don't want to. It seems that you care more about your pride and taking some stance against "social pressures" than the risk of spreading the virus. I think that attitude is far more dangerous than what you're complaining about, but you are free to do as you like. And I'm free to look at you sideways the same way I do for people who leave the restroom without washing their hands. 

Well if you saw my very early posts on this, I expressed concern immediately about this things' effect on personal freedoms. I also was very clear in the beginning, the first thing we needed to do was accept that people would die. I got criticized for that and you probably disagree, but it is very important in a situation like this to be ruled by logical, realistic thought. This is not an all or nothing situation, as shown in my personal approach. 

One of the things I've seen most with the mask wearing is people feeling invincible (or invisible, take your pick) when they wear one in public. They think, wear mask and I'm covered and then they go about getting very close to each other, shaking hands, etc.

See these recommendations from the Mayo clinic.

 

Here are a few pointers for putting on and taking off a cloth mask:

  • Place your mask over your mouth and nose.
  • Tie it behind your head or use ear loops and make sure it's snug.
  • Don't touch your mask while wearing it.
  • If you accidentally touch your mask, wash or sanitize your hands.
  • Remove the mask by untying it or lifting off the ear loops without touching the front of the mask or your face.
  • Wash your hands immediately after removing your mask.
  • Regularly wash your mask with soap and water in the washing machine. It's fine to launder it with other clothes.

Finally, here are a few face mask precautions:

  • Don't put masks on anyone who has trouble breathing, or is unconscious or otherwise unable to remove the mask without help.
  • Don't put masks on children under 2 years of age.
  • Don't use face masks as a substitute for social distancing.

 

Now notice the bold and enlarged fonts. If you watch the videos of the protests, you see lots of people that as soon as they engage someone, they pull down their mask so they can yell/chant, etc. Then they put the mask back over their mouth by pulling it up.  Many if not most people think that wearing that mask allows them to ignore the last guideline.  Many if not most "mask wearers" are handling their mask often, not washing them and are setting them down on surfaces in their car, home or notebook bag. Many if not most are removing them improperly and aren't washing their hands when touched or rub their eyes. They are significantly less effective if you have facial hair and are not fully effective unless they meet certain criteria.

 

From the CDC: " “A cloth face covering may not protect the wearer, but it may keep the wearer from spreading the virus to others.”  So as you can see, the CDC points out that it doesn't keep you from catching it and may (not will) keep the wearer from spreading.  I see real danger in this because we see people ignoring all the steps above because they think the mask "will" protect them and "will" stop them from spreading it.  This means spreaders go out into crowds thinking the mask fixes everything and they lessen or ignore the other guidelines (which are far more important). The virus is easily contracted through the eyes as well as the respiratory system. A mask may lower your chances of catching / spreading but nobody has gone on record as saying by how much.

 

From :

 

"Coronavirus Protection: N95 Masks vs Surgical Masks vs Cloth Masks

The masks that provide the best protection against coronavirus are N95 masks and certain surgical masks:

  • A tight-fitting N95 mask that is properly fitted to the face is able to block out small particle aerosols and large droplets (roughly 95% of airborne particles) through which the virus is typically transmitted.
  • A surgical mask, which is made from a more porous material and has a looser fit than an N95 mask, is more effective at limiting the spread of droplets from coughs and sneezes coming from the wearer.  Because it is highly permeable, it does not provide much protection against small virus particles....

A recent NY Times article reported the initial findings of Professor Yang Wang, who has been recognized internationally for his aerosol research.  Professor Wang and his graduate students found that an allergy-reduction HVAC filter captured 89 percent of particles with one layer and 94 percent with two layers.  By comparison, an N95 mask captures at least 95 percent of particles as small as 0.3 microns, while a typical surgical mask filters about 60 to 80 percent of particles."

 

Basically, this means a surgical level mask allows 20 to 40% through. Cloth masks (bandannas, t-shirt, etc) filter far less.  But people put that bandanna over their mouth and think their good and can do whatever they want. I don't wanna be that guy who is masked up and so people feel comfortable approaching him. 

 

This all falls into what we in the security risk analysis world call, "The Theater of Security".  There is a great "Adam Explains everything" that focuses heavily on the theater of security.  The unintended consequences of the measures are given people a feeling of security and so they don't follow other good practices.

 

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We all understand the limitations of masks.  We also understand that every reputable expert recommends wearing one as one of the most important steps to prevent spread.  We also can see that countries that have more willingly accepted the advice of professionals to prevent the spread are fairing much better.   

Again, if you want play loose with other people's lives then yeah everyone is free to do that.   As High5 said, we're also free to criticize this type of horrible decision. 

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Every reputable source will tell you that wearing a masks can't provide perfect protection to the wearer.  If they could, the bullet proof vest would be right analogy.  People could simply wear one and be safe.  But that isn't enough.  To be as safe as reasonably possible, people have to rely on others to act in good faith to collectively engage in behaviors to reduce risk.  Every reputable source will tell you the mask will reduce risk to the wearer but is not enough by itself keep people safe.

Every reputable source will also say that wearing a mask reduces the risk for other innocent Americans.  That needs to be combined with other responsible behavior as well but it is a critical step in and of itself.

Choosing not to wear a mask in a public area is actively choosing to expose other Americans to that elevated risk without their consent.  By the end of the day we will likely have lost 125,000 Americans.  We all need to be doing what we can to keep each other safe.

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28 minutes ago, thecampster said:

 

So because there are people who use masks improperly you shouldn't wear one? Because they don't make you completely immune you shouldn't wear one? Because people are going to die anyway you shouldn't wear one? I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

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