Who do you want at #6?

[Spud2nique]

6. Atlanta Hawks: Onyeka Okongwu, C, USC – Freshman

Okongwu was a monster on both ends of the floor for USC last season, as evidenced by his undeniably impressive advanced analytics. He finished the year atop the Pac-12 leaderboard in PER (31.1), Box Plus/Minus (13.6) and True Shooting percentage (.645). The Hawks have John Collins and Clint Capela entrenched as starters at power forward and center, respectively, but that will allow the 19-year old Okongwu to be eased into the rotation, coming off the bench to play either the 4 or 5. 

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, terrell said:

You think Toppin fits better with Capela than Collins does? Be honest...lol

Yes, because he doesn't operate in the post area. He operates on the perimeter and at the top of the key. JC operates in the post. The difference between JC and Toppin is you get a lot more offensive rebounds with JC who's one of the best bigs in the NBA on the offensive board while Toppin is one of the worse offensive rebounders in the draft and expected to translate as one of the worse in the NBA but that has more to do with how they operate as Toppin and JC are similar defensive rebounders which is decent, not good, not great but decent. The issue is, Capela is one of the best rebounders on both ends and he rebounds outside of his area with strong hands. Him and JC kinda operate in the same areas on offense. 

While both JC and Toppin are movement bigs, JC is fast and agile, Obi is fast and quick. One likes to put himself in position to score, the other likes to put himself into scoring opportunities for himself and others. There is just a massive difference as one is much difficult to deal with than the other. One takes having excellent decision making skills, playmaking skills, and high BBIQ. One just takes having a scoring mindset. 

JC is actually more similar to Amar'e game wise than Obi is but Obi is physically similar to Amar'e. Obi game is like Jo Noah or Al Horford with the athleticism of Amar'e and the finishing of Collins. He just capable of a lot more on offense potentially. Defensively, there will always be issues but I still think he has the potential to be close to net neutral as he is a high BBIQ player with a great feel for the game. Those guys always eventually get it at that position. Look at Jokic for example. 

He's an high end offensive impact player. To me, it will be interesting if Cleveland or Chicago passing on him because that's not a smart decision at all. Someone going to draft Thomas Robinson in this draft aka an obvious bust who's not good at Basketball and doesn't translate. That better not be the Hawks.

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[TheBigETrain]

 

My rankings

1. Edwards

2. Okoro

3. Ball

4. Okonguru

5. Wiseman

6. Toppin

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

And Derrick Williams a bit Supes. Toppin like a tad but Toppin is way better perimeter but still.

 

 

Low Basketball intelligence opinion.

Williams is a prime example of avoiding the post dominate big man who's undersized at all cost. He has the Shabazz Muhammad syndrome. He's primarily scored in the post drawing fouls like a machine. Insane FTA rate for a prospect. That did not translate in the NBA. He played a lot of bully ball. That may work at 6'9 250 in college but not in the NBA at that size unless you are like Jokic who can do a lot of things in the post or you are a freak athlete like Embiid and Shaq. Even freakish post players like Jahlil Okafor haven't translated impact wise. He's not a movement big. His BBIQ was merely average. His 3pt shooting was like Hunter meaning he was more of an open wide volume shooter. That works in college at the 4 but not in the NBA unless you have perimeter skills which lacked. 

He simply didn't translate to the NBA. While I have my share of misses, I never liked his prospect from the start. Was not surprised to see him bust. I expected it. Nothing translated even less than Okafor where it did translate, it just lost its impact in today's NBA for him. 

His strengths:

Post play - corliss Williamson game, didn't translate 

Drawing fouls like Luka but from the post- didn't translate 

Open threes - a lot harder to get them in the NBA without perimeter skills. 

You add the low playmaking skills. You get a player who simply doesn't translate. 

He was a good player in college but his calling card was always going to be Europe. Not the NBA and you knew he was good because teams kept giving him chances. They don't do that if they think you just suck.

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Last Toppin comp for me is Air Gordon.
 

 

You been hangin out with me too long. 

Another low Basketball intelligence hot take.

Aaron Gordon as a big man prospect was one of the better playmaking bigs. Even as he transition to the wing in the NBA, he has always maintained that. His decision making could always improve but that's been his calling card impact wise. 

Gordon might be one of the worst finishers in the NBA. Can't finish with contact which is why he moved to the wing even if his shooting struggles suggest he's a 5 and a poor shooter still at that. Solid on the offensive glass, his defensive rebounding was below average. During his move to the wing, we seen a reverse. He's become a top end defensive rebounder for a wing player and a good offensive rebounder but not the obvious difference like we saw at the 4. 

Gordon simply is a tweener in every sense of the word offensively. Defensively, he's a legit 3. His high end athleticism translated and while he was always very good laterally, he became one of the better wing defenders who can guard bigger wings in the NBA. The high flyer still has excellent talent and has improved his handles to be a functional wing even if shooting limitations hurt him.

Not sure how one of the worst finishing prospects as a big is comparable to one of the best all time? That's like comparing Steph Curry to Elfrid Payton

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

6. Atlanta Hawks: Onyeka Okongwu, C, USC – Freshman

Okongwu was a monster on both ends of the floor for USC last season, as evidenced by his undeniably impressive advanced analytics. He finished the year atop the Pac-12 leaderboard in PER (31.1), Box Plus/Minus (13.6) and True Shooting percentage (.645). The Hawks have John Collins and Clint Capela entrenched as starters at power forward and center, respectively, but that will allow the 19-year old Okongwu to be eased into the rotation, coming off the bench to play either the 4 or 5. 

While he reminds me defensively of Derrick Favors which is a very good thing offensively, I think he's a movement big. That's changes his projection a tad. That being said, movement isn't the end all. Culver was the best movement player in last years draft on the perimeter and he couldn't use it because he couldn't shoot. You can move like Reggie Miller with tireless stamina but you gotta be able to shoot it.

I am curious to see if Okongwu movement translates day 1. Otherwise, it wouldn't shock me if he was a top 3 pick this year. His metrics are insane for a modern 5 big man. You just worry if he's big enough for the position in year 1 considering the oversized talent at that position in general.

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[JTB]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

While he reminds me defensively of Derrick Favors which is a very good thing offensively, I think he's a movement big. That's changes his projection a tad. That being said, movement isn't the end all. Culver was the best movement player in last years draft on the perimeter and he couldn't use it because he couldn't shoot. You can move like Reggie Miller with tireless stamina but you gotta be able to shoot it.

I am curious to see if Okongwu movement translates day 1. Otherwise, it wouldn't shock me if he was a top 3 pick this year. His metrics are insane for a modern 5 big man. You just worry if he's big enough for the position in year 1 considering the oversized talent at that position in general.

At 6’9 and 245 or 250 pounds with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan ....yeah I think the kid will be able to hold his own vs most centers year 1

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

At 6’9 and 245 or 250 pounds with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan ....yeah I think the kid will be able to hold his own vs most centers year 1

Good thing is, he doesn't have to do the bulk in year 1 since we have Capela and Dedmon. He'll have time to work on his body.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

At 6’9 and 245 or 250 pounds with a 7’1 or 7’2 wingspan ....yeah I think the kid will be able to hold his own vs most centers year 1

That's smaller than Bruno length wise and 7 pounds bigger size wise and Bruno looked clearly undersized 

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[Lurker]

I'm not going to read this whole argument but Toppin won't be there at #6 anyway so what everyone is arguing about will be a moot point.

[NBASupes]

18 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I'm not going to read this whole argument but Toppin won't be there at #6 anyway so what everyone is arguing about will be a moot point.

In all likelihood, he shouldn't be but Lillard was at #6 in a similar draft

Neither the Bulls, Cavs, or Hawks have zero reason to pass on him to me. Lauri, John and older Kevin Love are all very good players but Lauri and John impact hasn't been much and KL can't stay healthy. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, TheBigETrain said:

Okonguru

You been reading material Gru!

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Low Basketball intelligence opinion.

THAT’S what theyyyyy call me  

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Another low Basketball intelligence hot take.

Why thank you  

[Spud2nique]

Derrick Williams ok I’ll give you that but if you are offended at the Aaron Gordon comparison then I’ll just go back to @kg01 and what he said. 
 

I think you may just have a crush on him. It’s not a big deal we don’t have to talk about it. I’ve had mine, Kawhi, Jaylen etc. and you love Toppin. 
 

I’m not an Aaron Gordon fan but I don’t see how Toppin can be better I’m sorry.

[terrell]

9 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Yes, because he doesn't operate in the post area. He operates on the perimeter and at the top of the key. JC operates in the post. The difference between JC and Toppin is you get a lot more offensive rebounds with JC who's one of the best bigs in the NBA on the offensive board while Toppin is one of the worse offensive rebounders in the draft and expected to translate as one of the worse in the NBA but that has more to do with how they operate as Toppin and JC are similar defensive rebounders which is decent, not good, not great but decent. The issue is, Capela is one of the best rebounders on both ends and he rebounds outside of his area with strong hands. Him and JC kinda operate in the same areas on offense. 

While both JC and Toppin are movement bigs, JC is fast and agile, Obi is fast and quick. One likes to put himself in position to score, the other likes to put himself into scoring opportunities for himself and others. There is just a massive difference as one is much difficult to deal with than the other. One takes having excellent decision making skills, playmaking skills, and high BBIQ. One just takes having a scoring mindset. 

JC is actually more similar to Amar'e game wise than Obi is but Obi is physically similar to Amar'e. Obi game is like Jo Noah or Al Horford with the athleticism of Amar'e and the finishing of Collins. He just capable of a lot more on offense potentially. Defensively, there will always be issues but I still think he has the potential to be close to net neutral as he is a high BBIQ player with a great feel for the game. Those guys always eventually get it at that position. Look at Jokic for example. 

He's an high end offensive impact player. To me, it will be interesting if Cleveland or Chicago passing on him because that's not a smart decision at all. Someone going to draft Thomas Robinson in this draft aka an obvious bust who's not good at Basketball and doesn't translate. That better not be the Hawks.

You sound very skeptical about the Collins/Capela pairing..I'm praying it works..But I wouldn't be upset if we took Obi, just in case it doesnt.....lol. Btw, if we're for sure trading back up for a pg, Im definitely taking Obi, Deni, or Okungwu at #6.....Im probably taking one of them regardless..My mind isnt made up yet. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by terrell

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, terrell said:

You sound very skeptical about the Collins/Capela pairing..I'm praying it works..But I wouldn't be upset if we took Obi, just in case it doesnt.....lol. Btw, if we're for sure trading back up for a pg, Im definitely taking Obi, Deni, or Okungwu at #6.....

Offensively yes, defensively, hell yes. John shown improvement as interior defender and looked like ass in space. Capela is all interior defense. Not sure the fit is there but Trae will love having Capela. With two PnR threats, schemes will have to more complex and harder to scheme against. Capela fits Trae more than he fits JC. The ideal big for JC is a playmaking type. Adams was the best for both JC and Trae but Capela is best for Trae

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes

[terrell]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Offensively yes, defensively, hell yes. John shown improvement as interior defender and looked like ass in space. Capela is all interior defense. Not sure the fit is there but Trae will love having Capela. With two PnR threats, schemes will have to more complex and harder to scheme against 

Thing is they can trap him on a Capela p&r because he cant shoot..I wish i knew what direction Travis was going...Capela works better with a stretch 4, and he has 3 yrs left... Collins is better in the lane catching lobs and shit..Everyone knows this...Im confused. lol

Edited August 22, 2020 by terrell

[NBASupes]

Just now, terrell said:

Thing is they can trap him on a Capela p&r because he cant shoot..

Naw, it only works like that if your wings can't shoot. Capela is an elite screener with a wide frame and quickness, his space he clears helps Trae a ton. It will help all of our wings. 

But yeah, Cam, Kevin, and Hunter will have to be able to shoot so they can't sellout on the trap. If they do, it's extremely hard to stop because of the space Capela clears and the spacing that you have to respect. I have no doubt we are going to be a better offense with Capela this year than Dedmon overall but PPP is where I am concerned but we just need the bench to be much better in that area in my opinion. We already know we need to see improvement from Hunter and Reddish as well as Huerter 

[kg01]

Toppin is far worse defensively than Collins, is less athletic, and is smaller.  But he's the perfect 4?

Interesting. 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Toppin is far worse defensively than Collins, is less athletic, and is smaller.  But he's the perfect 4?

Interesting. 

Far worse is a major reach. Collins had horrible defensive metrics as a prospect while Toppin defensive metrics are on par with Kelly Olynyk and Dwight Powell. Toppin has defensive playmaking abilities and he's a good shot blocker. We finally got JC to realize he can block shots this season. 

JC does have more defensive talent for sure but JC worked his ass off to become a close to net zero defender and that's as a 5. As a 4, the book is still open and he looked terrible at all when Dedmon returned back to Atlanta and JC had to defend the 4.

No one has said he's the perfect 4. I keep saying he's the perfect offensive 4 in the modern NBA.

Edited August 22, 2020 by NBASupes