The Athletic's Top 125 Players by Tiers.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

Clint Capela, Tier 5

 

 

 

John Collins, Tier 4

Quote

Meanwhile, Collins’ increasing offensive versatility — he showcased an improved 3-point touch in the half-season of action he managed this past year — is encouraging, but he has yet to prove the ability to defend and rebound to a sufficient level to be a playoff-quality small-ball 5. Collins is also an interesting case because he is one of the few cases where RAPM and PIPM strongly disagree upon which end of the floor he is more effective. Among minute-qualifying players, he is 211st in ORAPM/93rd in DRAPM compared to 98th in OPIPM/230th in DPIPM.

 

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

Collins is also an interesting case because he is one of the few cases where RAPM and PIPM strongly disagree upon which end of the floor he is more effective. Among minute-qualifying players, he is 211st in ORAPM/93rd in DRAPM compared to 98th in OPIPM/230th in DPIPM.

 

 

How in the world do you classify him as the 211th best offensive player in the league when he is ultra efficient around the basket, shot 40% from 3 and puts up 20 per game (so it isn't low volume scoring ala Tyson Chandler or something)?  That is crazy to me.

[NBASupes]

29 minutes ago, AHF said:

How in the world do you classify him as the 211th best offensive player in the league when he is ultra efficient around the basket, shot 40% from 3 and puts up 20 per game (so it isn't low volume scoring ala Tyson Chandler or something)?  That is crazy to me.

I keep telling you he's like Tyson Chandler types but you keep thinking of volume when I am talking style of play. Rim running, can't create for himself, primarily just a finisher in the grand scheme of things with shooting pop when open. It will see his offense as fake or just due to situation.  

Now with some metrics, it will see his efficiency, volume of scoring with his style, and consistency as a plus. 

Defense it's similar. As a small-ball 5, he is a good rim protector this past season and he really did a good job when he was around the paint. Played bigger than the 230 that he is. Then again, can't defend in space, his defensive impact is bad, it can be seen as a negative in a scope, defensively. 

That said, tier 4B is pretty damn good for JC. It's good company to be in. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by NBASupes

[High5]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I keep telling you he's like Tyson Chandler types

Stooooooop. Just because someone doesn't create a lot of offense on their own doesn't mean they're anything like Tyson Chandler. Beside's Chandler's offense being basically nonexistent outside of the paint, Collins is a much more gifted scorer around the basket. That's such a lazy, "low IQ" (to use your words) comparison. 

[NBASupes]

Just now, High5 said:

Stooooooop. Just because someone doesn't create a lot of offense on their own doesn't mean they're anything like Tyson Chandler. Beside's Chandler's offense being basically nonexistent outside of the paint, Collins is a much more gifted scorer around the basket. That's such a lazy, "low IQ" (to use your words) comparison. 

You stop it with obtuse stanning, that's what he is. A damn rim running big man. Damn near everyone sees him as that. 

[marco102]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

How in the world do you classify him as the 211th best offensive player in the league when he is ultra efficient around the basket, shot 40% from 3 and puts up 20 per game (so it isn't low volume scoring ala Tyson Chandler or something)?  That is crazy to me.

This is why you have to use the eye tests too.  Stats are cute whenever you try to make everything even for all the players, but there's no way in hell there are 211 better offensive players than John Collins.  That's like saying John Collins is the 7th man on any team in the league.  He's definitely not that.

[kg01]

John Collins is basically javale Mcgee.  You guys just aren't smart enough to see it. 

[JayBirdHawk]

14 minutes ago, kg01 said:

John Collins is basically javale Mcgee.  You guys just aren't smart enough to see it. 

This can't be from the future? Tell us something we don't know about JC from your 2021 future.

[gurpilo]

No way Capela is on the same boat as Maxi Kleber, Daniel Theis, Zubac or Royce O’Neal to name a few, no way.

and no way Collins is in the same boat as Beverley, Anunoby, Joe Harris or Bogdanovic.

Just looking at that you can bet this article is trash.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I keep telling you he's like Tyson Chandler types

You and I are never going to agree on this.  A big man who shoots 40% from 3pt range and volume scores around the paint does not make you a Tyson Chandler type.  That is like saying Shaq was an Erick Dampier type just because both did their damage around the rim.  

A - The jump shot is a huge differentiator.

B - Volume matters.  If Tyson Chandler could have scored 22 ppg he would have been a way, way, way better offensive player even if he was just dunking the ball all game.  He could never do that because his game lacked the tools to generate volume scoring. 

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This can't be from the future? Tell us something we don't know about JC from your 2021 future.

Greetings from 2021.

It's not "my" 2021 future, it's "the" 2021 future.  I don't write the future, I just tell it.

John Collins will be an all-star injury replacement, but he won't be on Team Trae.  He'll be on ..... Team Doncic....

Ohhhhhhhhhhh .....

Edited October 20, 2020 by kg01

[JayBirdHawk]

14 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Greetings from 2021.

It's not "my" 2021 future, it's "the" 2021 future.  I don't write the future, I just tell it.

John Collins will be an all-star injury replacement, but he won't be on Team Trae.  He'll be on ..... Team Doncic....

Ohhhhhhhhhhh .....

Ha...I can live with that.  It means he is available and playing and the Hawks are playing winning basketball.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

You and I are never going to agree on this.  A big man who shoots 40% from 3pt range and volume scores around the paint does not make you a Tyson Chandler type.  That is like saying Shaq was an Erick Dampier type just because both did their damage around the rim.  

A - The jump shot is a huge differentiator.

B - Volume matters.  If Tyson Chandler could have scored 22 ppg he would have been a way, way, way better offensive player even if he was just dunking the ball all game.  He could never do that because his game lacked the tools to generate volume scoring. 

A. It don't come off that much volume and he's shooting 27% on contested threes. That's not tangible for data charts.

B. Stop it, at least use Z-Bo to Shaq or something. The only thing Erick Dampier and Shaq got in common is their centers. 

[Gray Mule]

Everyone keeps wondering, "Why are our players so far down on this list?"

Simple answer:  They are Atlanta Hawks!  No other reason necessary.

[kg01]

18 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ha...I can live with that.  It means he is available and playing and the Hawks are playing winning basketball.

I'm disappointed yall missed the real pre-news of the post.  Note who the team captains are in '21? 

Ok, logging out.  Gotta get ..... back to the future.  

[JayBirdHawk]

36 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm disappointed yall missed the real pre-news of the post.  Note who the team captains are in '21? 

Ok, logging out.  Gotta get ..... back to the future.  

I got it, that's why I said...'I'll live with it' 

[AHF]

17 hours ago, NBASupes said:

B. Stop it, at least use Z-Bo to Shaq or something. The only thing Erick Dampier and Shaq got in common is their centers. 

Tyson Chandler and John Collins don't even have that much in common.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

Tyson Chandler and John Collins don't even have that much in common.

Yes they do. What are you talking about?

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Yes they do. What are you talking about?

JC will be a power forward in the vast majority of his minutes next season.  Chandler never played anywhere other than center.

JC and Chandler have very little in common as players other than the fact that they can both rim run.  Defensively they are nothing alike. 

Offensively Tyson shot 75% of his attempts from within 3 feet of the rim and less than 10% from  >10 feet.  He took 0.2% of his shots from 3pt range.

Last season JC shot less than 47% of his attempts within 3 feet and roughly 35% from >10 feet.  He took almost 1/4 of his shots from 3pt range and hit 40% of them.

Tyson was almost a complete bystander on offense with basically zero action involving him.  The vast majority of his shots were garbage clean up.  He averaged less than 7 shots per 36 minutes for his career.  JC is an important part of the Hawks offense and his action with Trae is a key part of our offense.  JC averaged 16+ shots per 36 the last two seasons where he was the #2 option both seasons.

So very little alike that it is criminal to use them as comparisons.

[JayBirdHawk]

Trae Young - Tier 3C

Quote

Trae Young: Next season will be a big year in the evaluation of Young. On one hand, he has unquestionably been an offensive force since entering the league. On the other, one has to wonder if the degree to which Atlanta has maximized Young’s output in its heliocentric system (Young was second in the league in total usage and offensive time of possession percentage last season, trailing only Doncic in both categories) overstates his impact to a degree. Atlanta’s team construction certainly benefits Young in terms of either RAPM — the lack of a competent backup can make a star player look even better due to the oversized drop off when he leaves the game — or PIPM, as that same heliocentrism allows Young the benefit of collecting as many of the “table stakes” stats that a team gets almost just for showing up.

Also, defense. In the 378 minutes qualifying players were considered for the tiers list, Young finished 377th in DRAPM and 378th in DPIPM. Those numbers will presumably improve some as the Hawks get better, both by putting better defensive talent around him and by reducing his offensive burden somewhat. One could also project that as Atlanta plays in a higher number of competitive games, more focus and attention to detail on that end of the floor will be required.

If this sounds like I’m hating on Young, it’s more that I’m explaining why a player who averaged 29 and 9 on above-average efficiency isn’t placed higher in this taxonomy. It’s not make or break time exactly for a player who just turned 22 in September. But at some point, the gaudy individual numbers do have to translate into team success, which doesn’t seem like too big an ask for a player with designs on the Top 20 or higher.

https://theathletic.com/2088180/2020/10/21/the-top-125-nba-players-the-athletics-player-tiers-tier-3-from-bam-adebayo-to-zion-williamson/