2020-21 The Current Ask Supes

[sturt]

Snell is an expiring. Not sure why he'd be part of any conversation about the luxury tax, which is not a concern probably for another two years at least.

[Watchman]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Other young guys.  Again, I think we just disagree if Collins is worth a max or not.  I'll be very happy if we keep him for $20M but max isn't worth it imo... if we pay Collins the max and Hunter/Cam pan out to best case scenarios, we won't be able to pay them and his contract will not be easy to ship.

I think the difference in our opinion is just how much we think Collins is worth which leaks into the other discussions.

He may not be worth a max, but if Gallo gets $20mm and Bogi gets $18mm, Collins is certainly worth $25+mm.  Who cares if we keep Cam anyway?  36.5% shooters (26.2% from 3pt) are a dime a dozen.

[JayBirdHawk]

42 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

No owner wants to be in the luxury tax.  Everything I'm saying thecampster outlines below as our FOs same concerns... we would have absolutely zero flexibility if hunter and cam end up being max or near-max worthy.  Sure, we can trade Collins but in the scenario I'm citing his production will certainly take a hit.  There's one ball to go around and if we want to spread out minutes and shots to other guys, Collins will not be a perennial 20/10.  Hes already down from that this season to more like 18/8.

Giving Collins a max forces us to invest in him not only monetarily but on the court as well which takes opportunity away from other guys such as Hunter and Gallo who we just signed.

1. 18/8 He's also playing 3 less minutes per game and still efficient and improving all aspects of his game.

2. WHAT? Taking away opportunities from Gallo??? WOW, just WOW.  Hunter plays SF, Collins plays PF and C - they don't get in each other's way. 

I'd rather invest $27 mil and court time on a 23 year old Collins in lieu of a 32yr old Gallo at $20 million for the next 2 years. We're just coming out of a rebuild and you're concerned about Gallo's opportunities? 

I feel like I'm being punked. Yeah, I'm done with this.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

No owner wants to be in the luxury tax.  Everything I'm saying thecampster outlines below as our FOs same concerns... we would have absolutely zero flexibility if hunter and cam end up being max or near-max worthy.  Sure, we can trade Collins but in the scenario I'm citing his production will certainly take a hit.  There's one ball to go around and if we want to spread out minutes and shots to other guys, Collins will not be a perennial 20/10.  Hes already down from that this season to more like 18/8.

Giving Collins a max forces us to invest in him not only monetarily but on the court as well which takes opportunity away from other guys such as Hunter and Gallo who we just signed.

Cam and Hunter are less of an issue than the idea that JC market place if given that max could be extremely slim. When you give a guy a big deal, you want to be able to get assets for it if given. You don't want to have a bad unmovable contract 

[RedDawg#8]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

That only holds true if his statistical production nose dives into oblivian. Let's put it this way, as of today, I have more faith in Collins maintaining his trajectory than I have in Cam fixing his offense. 

100 percent agree.

 

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Cam and Hunter are less of an issue than the idea that JC market place if given that max could be extremely slim. When you give a guy a big deal, you want to be able to get assets for it if given. You don't want to have a bad unmovable contract 

Yeah, I've mentioned that as well.  Just because one team is willing to max him does not mean his value is max to every other team or any teams that might have assets we'd want in return.  Maxing Collins would almost definitely mean we have to attach some attractive picks to ship him out

[thecampster]

4 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Yeah, I've mentioned that as well.  Just because one team is willing to max him does not mean his value is max to every other team or any teams that might have assets we'd want in return.  Maxing Collins would almost definitely mean we have to attach some attractive picks to ship him out

The only and real problem with maxing Collins is that PF is the easiest position in the NBA to fill.  Good PF to average PF is a much smaller difference than good SG/SF to average. There are just more good PF's in this league than wings. In the current NBA model you have to invest in solid wing play both starting and off the bench.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

This is one of the reasons they are disappointed (as am I) in Bruno. They paid him above his slot but aren't getting out of him what a vet minimum would bring.

So what is Bruno's issue? Any insight into Bruno like you had for Reddish and Huerter?

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

A word on Huerter as a teammate.

In the Bulls' heyday, players marveled at the assignments Dennis Rodman would volunteer for. Rodman would stay after practice with players who wanted shooting reps...even free throws and volunteer to shag balls.  Rodman would ask shooters to stay after just so he could practice rebounding. He obsessed over it, to the point they said he could call if a shot was going in the second it left a shooter's hand. Rodman worked on boxing out alone. He would watch film for tendencies on players and position himself to easier box that player out. He was a craft guy.

The word on Huerter is he'll volunteer for things like feeding balls to shooters. Setting picks in practice or being the defender a pick is set on just so others can work on their craft. The whole time he's asking coaches what he can do better.  He's like the backup combo wing version of Rodman. He does whatever he can for teammates and makes it work for him. The guys' love him. He is a glue guy with starter capable skills.

This is awesome to hear!  I've been really impressed with Heurter's improvement year over year.  I used to think he'd be an O.K. backup but he's already an O.K. starter.  Love that he's not only putting in work but helping other guys out.  I hope we keep him around.

[thecampster]

52 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

So what is Bruno's issue? Any insight into Bruno like you had for Reddish and Huerter?

The game is too fast for him. That is pretty hard to fix. 

 

I've talked about this on draft night.  The hardest transitions from college to the pros is usually for centers.  In college you play zone and teams like Maryland that usually have shooters + real bigs play a lot of box and 1. A big like Bruno in college is used to being able to play back with feet in the lane and never venture past the free throw line. On the defensive end, he could play lazy, never body up and had to move little to challenge a shooter. Typical college plays do not see much screen setting pick n roll. College centers never have to make that choice better stopping penetration or choosing the roll.  Bruno hasn't made the transition to man well. Get's caught outside the lane often, is late to body up his man and gives up weakside layups or offensive rebounds. He doesn't know when he can be in the lane and when to get out and it seems to be instincts, not fixable. It isn't mechanical. The game is just too fast for him.  On offense it can be worse. He gets muscled out of position despite being the strongest cat on the floor most of the time. He's always late reacting to a shot going up and can never get in position for an offensive board. Its why you see him trying to tip so much. He not in position and being muscled off the block. Not because of mechanics, but because of reaction time. He is always a step slow to react.

[sturt]

Can I play?

Players who are a step slow but who are young... and in this case, blew away their combine tests (ie, the physical traits are there)... routinely are players who are not yet able to play naturally and with their instincts... and that's often because they're too preoccupied with thinking about what they've been coached to do.

To get past that, they mainly need time... and perhaps, counterintuitive though it may be, less coaching.

In a word, they need others' patience.

What they don't need is their mom to be deathly ill, then to die, and for their playing time to be inconsistent, and their season to be truncated in their rookie season. That's not helpful. And then, what they don't need is the next season to feature a truncated training camp, no practice between games... games in which they rarely play, that is... and... no G-league team to even get that much floor time against that lesser competition (which he dominated the previous year on the occasions where he spent time in CP).

 

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

Snell is an expiring. Not sure why he'd be part of any conversation about the luxury tax, which is not a concern probably for another two years at least.

Great question, glad you insinuated.

 

Tearing apart next year's cap, I did some basic house cleaning.

1, renounced rights to Brandon Goodwin.

2. renounced rights to Solomon Hill

Accepted all player/team options (Dunn, Reddish, Huerter, Young, Hunter).

Signed Collins to the max.

Signed 2021 draft pick (20th overall....I'm optimistic).

Renounced the mid-level exception.

This leaves 15 players under contract.

 

As long as Snell is unsigned, and unrenounced, we are technically 16.6 million into the LT as his cap hold is 18.267 million. Being over the LT severely limits offseason signings.. Although technically 1.6 million under the LT, the cap hold impedes our ability to sign a quality free agent. If we keep the exception we can do so, but it puts us over the LT regardless and creates impediments.  Trading Snell now for a player worth less clears up room.  Packaging him with Bruno for a big clears up an emergency roster spot. Packaging him with Rondo creates more salary room next year.

 

Signing Collins to 3 million less than the max creates more room.  Playing under the LT creates options, just like playing under the cap creates more options.

[JayBirdHawk]

25 minutes ago, thecampster said:

The game is too fast for him. That is pretty hard to fix. 

 

I've talked about this on draft night.  The hardest transitions from college to the pros is usually for centers.  In college you play zone and teams like Maryland that usually have shooters + real bigs play a lot of box and 1. A big like Bruno in college is used to being able to play back with feet in the lane and never venture past the free throw line. On the defensive end, he could play lazy, never body up and had to move little to challenge a shooter. Typical college plays do not see much screen setting pick n roll. College centers never have to make that choice better stopping penetration or choosing the roll.  Bruno hasn't made the transition to man well. Get's caught outside the lane often, is late to body up his man and gives up weakside layups or offensive rebounds. He doesn't know when he can be in the lane and when to get out and it seems to be instincts, not fixable. It isn't mechanical. The game is just too fast for him.  On offense it can be worse. He gets muscled out of position despite being the strongest cat on the floor most of the time. He's always late reacting to a shot going up and can never get in position for an offensive board. Its why you see him trying to tip so much. He not in position and being muscled off the block. Not because of mechanics, but because of reaction time. He is always a step slow to react.

I said before that Bruno plays reactive and not anticipatory basketball, a lot of that like you said is because the game is too fast for him.

It's unfortunate the Hawks didn't have a GLeague team so he can just play some basketball to adjust to speed.

[thecampster]

" One sad Atlanta note: Tony Snell’s streak of minutes played without attempting a free throw came to an end Saturday against the Kings at 471. That is a single-season NBA record."

https://sports.yahoo.com/nba-power-rankings-brooklyn-moves-195910146.html

[sturt]

camp, see your PM plz.

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Great question, glad you insinuated.

 

Tearing apart next year's cap, I did some basic house cleaning.

1, renounced rights to Brandon Goodwin.

2. renounced rights to Solomon Hill

Accepted all player/team options (Dunn, Reddish, Huerter, Young, Hunter).

Signed Collins to the max.

Signed 2021 draft pick (20th overall....I'm optimistic).

Renounced the mid-level exception.

This leaves 15 players under contract.

 

As long as Snell is unsigned, and unrenounced, we are technically 16.6 million into the LT as his cap hold is 18.267 million. Being over the LT severely limits offseason signings.. Although technically 1.6 million under the LT, the cap hold impedes our ability to sign a quality free agent. If we keep the exception we can do so, but it puts us over the LT regardless and creates impediments.  Trading Snell now for a player worth less clears up room.  Packaging him with Bruno for a big clears up an emergency roster spot. Packaging him with Rondo creates more salary room next year.

 

Signing Collins to 3 million less than the max creates more room.  Playing under the LT creates options, just like playing under the cap creates more options.

Thanks for the breakdown.

Not once did I include Snell's caphold in any future salary for next season. He's an MLE player on the open market at best.

Why not renounce his $18 mil caphold and sign him to the MLE? Why did you suggest we renounce the MLE?

And Collins caphold is $12 million.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

The game is too fast for him. That is pretty hard to fix. 

 

I've talked about this on draft night.  The hardest transitions from college to the pros is usually for centers.  In college you play zone and teams like Maryland that usually have shooters + real bigs play a lot of box and 1. A big like Bruno in college is used to being able to play back with feet in the lane and never venture past the free throw line. On the defensive end, he could play lazy, never body up and had to move little to challenge a shooter. Typical college plays do not see much screen setting pick n roll. College centers never have to make that choice better stopping penetration or choosing the roll.  Bruno hasn't made the transition to man well. Get's caught outside the lane often, is late to body up his man and gives up weakside layups or offensive rebounds. He doesn't know when he can be in the lane and when to get out and it seems to be instincts, not fixable. It isn't mechanical. The game is just too fast for him.  On offense it can be worse. He gets muscled out of position despite being the strongest cat on the floor most of the time. He's always late reacting to a shot going up and can never get in position for an offensive board. Its why you see him trying to tip so much. He not in position and being muscled off the block. Not because of mechanics, but because of reaction time. He is always a step slow to react.

Feel for the game is hard to evaluate. It would be one thing if he lacked it on offense and not defense but he lacks feel for both ends.

[Spud2nique]

Bruno has as much feel for the game as Lloyd had for being a head coach, which by the way is none. Can’t sugar coat it. 
 

Oh, and please don’t use Cam or Huerter in the same sentence as Bruno. Cam has a world of talent, he’s gonna be a beast and I still believe that. Huerter has a lower ceiling but still will produce if he keeps taking adv of his height and 15-20 jumper over smaller defenders like Nique pleads for every game.

Cam though, he’s got almost too much feel but his handles are horrid right now he has to tighten that up and play within himself, he has million dollars moves though and just a beauty of a shot as far as mechanics but he needs reps and to build his foundation which for him is first and foremost, his body. He needs to get in that weight room like Gordon Hayward and get stronger. Play at your pace Cam, like Luka does.

[Spud2nique]

50 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Feel for the game

More than speed of the game. Speed of the game is what most college players, even bigs get used to, this isn’t the case for Bruno. Dude has stone hands, I’m not sure what that has to do with the speed of the game if you can’t even catch a ball, he’s not even bobbling the ball on pick n rolls but rather in the backcourt when he grabs a loose ball or rebound, he bobbles. Also IQ, he lacks it severely. He is complete lost out there. 
 

He seriously needs to stop working out as much in the weight room and get reps on what he is payed to do which is rebound and defend.

@thecampster Explain then if you will, what the difference is between Bruno, a 3rd year guy, and Nathan Knight of speed of the game is the problem. Knight is a rookie and he looks pretty comfortable with the speed of the game out there? Knight reads plays and understands the game as far as IQ and what is going to happen next, Bruno acts like he’s shocked on every play. Again, lack of practice or not Bruno is a 3rd year player and Knight a rookie. I’m sorry speed of the game is down on Bruno’s list as far as excuses for his poor play. He plays she’ll shocked and obviously isn’t approaching practice the correct way. 

[mrhonline]

Bruising bigs like Bruno have a tiny window for error these days. It helps if they can develop some touch from three, which was obviously the hope when he was drafted.

But it's been clear for a while that he doesn't belong on an NBA roster. I'd expect it will cost a 2nd rounder to free up his roster spot. Based on how the team plays without Clint, I think that's a necessary cost.