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No Extension for John Collins


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1 minute ago, AHF said:

I'd call that a low ball offer.  If we offered anything less than that, it is an outright insult.  But there is a large gap between 120M and 80M where the two sides might have been playing.

Until I hear otherwise, I am assuming that JC's people wanted the max and didn't offer anything far from that and I'm assuming the Hawks offered something in the 85-100M range.  With a gap of around $10-25M, both sides decided to see what the market looks like next summer.  And I'm good with that.

As I've said before and others have also said, let's see what JC looks like on a much more competitive roster and how the season plays out before committing to max or near max money.  I strongly believe we'll be able to sign him for that next offseason if he does a Brandon Ingram.

If we're not using him as PNR Karl Malone.. why are we wasting his time and ability?  I'm not saying I want to trade JC.  I love Shareef and I love to see teams run PNR... But what I'm saying is that after a Shareef like Season... you would think we'd be jumping to resign him and market this as Stockton Malone 2020... Instead... we go out and get a defensive PF and a 3 pt PF... and Clint is already one of the best small 5s playing....  This is not Stockton Malone 2020...  This is Utah Jazz after Malone.. i.e.  AK47 and Matt Harpring. 

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2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Then we are still worse defensively and if Gallo 3 isn't falling, then what?

Then... you do Sactown with Webber.

We don't win with defense, we outscore the competition. 

Defense wins games is a misnomer.   I've seen strong defensive teams win nothing.  Offense wins games and all you really need is a slight difference... in your offense and the other teams offense to be a winner.   That's why we bring in defensive minded assistant coaches and we get some defensive players (Dunn OO) on the team that can help us stop a run. 

But Trae is litterally the worse defender in the league... However, nobody says... well play Dunn instead.  Why is because offense wins games and puts butts in the seats.   IF we can find a good enough defensive scheme that can slow down our opponent's scoring, we'll do that. 

 

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1 hour ago, BangHolman said:

I think there's a good chance that John statistically regresses

That won't matter unless his efficiency takes a dive, which is rarely the case when players take fewer shots. Interested teams (like the Spurs, surely) will just talk themselves into 20/10 JC.

Odds of him getting $125M are quite high.

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8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Then... you do Sactown with Webber.

We don't win with defense, we outscore the competition. 

Defense wins games is a misnomer.   I've seen strong defensive teams win nothing.  Offense wins games and all you really need is a slight difference... in your offense and the other teams offense to be a winner.   That's why we bring in defensive minded assistant coaches and we get some defensive players (Dunn OO) on the team that can help us stop a run. 

But Trae is litterally the worse defender in the league... However, nobody says... well play Dunn instead.  Why is because offense wins games and puts butts in the seats.   IF we can find a good enough defensive scheme that can slow down our opponent's scoring, we'll do that. 

 

 

Sure. Keep thinking that.

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1 hour ago, Diesel said:

If we're not using him as PNR Karl Malone.. why are we wasting his time and ability?  I'm not saying I want to trade JC.  I love Shareef and I love to see teams run PNR... But what I'm saying is that after a Shareef like Season... you would think we'd be jumping to resign him and market this as Stockton Malone 2020... Instead... we go out and get a defensive PF and a 3 pt PF... and Clint is already one of the best small 5s playing....  This is not Stockton Malone 2020...  This is Utah Jazz after Malone.. i.e.  AK47 and Matt Harpring. 

OO is a center not a PF.  They hope to develop him so that he is versatile enough to pick up some minutes at PF.  

If we are smart, we will do much more with JC than sit him behind the 3pt line and that will include a healthy dose of PNR.  That will allow us to assess him in the current competitive context and then resolve his contract next summer.

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56 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

That won't matter unless his efficiency takes a dive, which is rarely the case when players take fewer shots. Interested teams (like the Spurs, surely) will just talk themselves into 20/10 JC.

Odds of him getting $125M are quite high.

If he is gong to end up with a max deal, we can give it to him just as easily next year as now.  There isn't a lot of downside to waiting until then to give him $125M if the alternative is giving it to him now.

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1 hour ago, AHF said:

I'd call that a low ball offer.  If we offered anything less than that, it is an outright insult.  But there is a large gap between 120M and 80M where the two sides might have been playing.

Until I hear otherwise, I am assuming that JC's people wanted the max and didn't offer anything far from that and I'm assuming the Hawks offered something in the 85-100M range.  With a gap of around $10-25M, both sides decided to see what the market looks like next summer.  And I'm good with that.

As I've said before and others have also said, let's see what JC looks like on a much more competitive roster and how the season plays out before committing to max or near max money.  I strongly believe we'll be able to sign him for that next offseason if he does a Brandon Ingram.

I'll call it an overpay to a massive overpay. I hope he's traded if the value is there which I don't think will be but if it is, move him. I am still holding out hope for a Mikal Bridges for JC trade.

Edited by NBASupes
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10 minutes ago, AHF said:

OO is a center not a PF.  They hope to develop him so that he is versatile enough to pick up some minutes at PF.  

If we are smart, we will do much more with JC than sit him behind the 3pt line and that will include a healthy dose of PNR.  That will allow us to assess him in the current competitive context and then resolve his contract next summer.

He played PF most of his time at USC. If anything, he's flexible due to his defensive value of being able to guard any position. He said he's been working a lot of his shooting in the offseason. Maybe he is JC replacement at the 4.

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8 minutes ago, AHF said:

If he is gong to end up with a max deal, we can give it to him just as easily next year as now.  There isn't a lot of downside to waiting until then to give him $125M if the alternative is giving it to him now.

That's not really the point. 

The question is, "Do the Hawks want to pay him that?"  Looking at their off-season moves and future obligations, I don't get the impression they want to.

I'm trying to say this objectively and without being alarmist, but I'm not really having much luck, so I'll be more direct ---

They may just let him go.  That's an eventuality I don't think some of you are prepared for, but you need to at least consider it.

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Just now, NBASupes said:

He played PF most of his time at USC. If anything, he's flexible due to his defensive value of being able to guard any position. He said he's been working a lot of his shooting in the offseason. Maybe he is JC replacement at the 4.

If he's being compared to Bam and modeling his game after him, safe to say he's probably going to play majority of his minutes at center. 

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1 hour ago, AHF said:

I strongly believe we'll be able to sign him for that next offseason if he does a Brandon Ingram.

I could be wrong, but can't the Hawks offer him a 5th year next summer that no other team can?  So even if he's bitter (I don't think he would be, but who knows) about not getting a deal early, if he proves to be worth the max and the Hawks don't want to lose him, they would still be in the drivers seat with negotiations, right?  

So from the Hawks perspective, if JC and his team are asking for / expecting the Max, waiting makes the most sense. Either he proves to be worth the max and you end up paying the max OR he loses value and you save money at something less than the max.  

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1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Then... you do Sactown with Webber.

We don't win with defense, we outscore the competition. 

Defense wins games is a misnomer.   I've seen strong defensive teams win nothing.  Offense wins games and all you really need is a slight difference... in your offense and the other teams offense to be a winner.   That's why we bring in defensive minded assistant coaches and we get some defensive players (Dunn OO) on the team that can help us stop a run. 

But Trae is litterally the worse defender in the league... However, nobody says... well play Dunn instead.  Why is because offense wins games and puts butts in the seats.   IF we can find a good enough defensive scheme that can slow down our opponent's scoring, we'll do that. 

 

Gallo is better than Collins. I sooner people accept that reality, the better. 

Edited by NBASupes
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3 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

They may just let him go.  That's an eventuality I don't think some of you are prepared for, but you need to at least consider it.

Why would they?  They have him under control for 2 full seasons (if they want) so they can pretty easily trade him if he's as valuable to other teams as he thinks he is.  Time is on the Hawks side in this situation.  While they COULD end up letting him walk for nothing, it would be their decision to do so and would likely be a product of indecision early on. Once they wait too long, sure, he can walk without any compensation.  But if they handle the situation properly, they hold all the cards to be able to either retain him or trade him for value.  

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Just now, NBASupes said:

Bam played a lot of PF last year when they started Leonard in the RS. 

True, I was thinking about the bubble. That was a testament to his gaurd skills and playmaking(and defense). If O can get to that level than that would interesting.

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1 hour ago, AHF said:

I'd call that a low ball offer.  If we offered anything less than that, it is an outright insult.  But there is a large gap between 120M and 80M where the two sides might have been playing.

Until I hear otherwise, I am assuming that JC's people wanted the max and didn't offer anything far from that and I'm assuming the Hawks offered something in the 85-100M range.  With a gap of around $10-25M, both sides decided to see what the market looks like next summer.  And I'm good with that.

As I've said before and others have also said, let's see what JC looks like on a much more competitive roster and how the season plays out before committing to max or near max money.  I strongly believe we'll be able to sign him for that next offseason if he does a Brandon Ingram.

Those are the numbers I think as well. We probably offered 90 to 100. His representation was looking for no less than 120. The numbers were too far apart to be reconciled. As we have stated, there isn't much upside for the Hawks to give a huge deal now. Getting him at a discount would be the only reason to sign him now. And John's team saw no need for a young 20/10 to take a discount. That's just how it goes sometimes.

Edited by bleachkit
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