No Extension for John Collins

[AHF]

Supes you know you are insulting people and doing little else with the Josh Smith comparisons.  
 

In terms of JC’s scoring, we should want to keep it up.  He was a more efficient scorer last season than anyone on the team including Trae and Gallo.  You want the most efficiency so no reason not to have JC heavily involved in the offense.

[kg01]

I think Collins' range is Sabonis/Turner, salary-wise.  I think that's fair.  If he gets more though, I don’t think that's a terrible deal.

Equating him to Josh Smith is unfair.

[Gray Mule]

Collins' agent may say, "Pay the max or else."  If he does, look for the "Or else" to happen.

Collins has been great for the Hawks.  With him, they win a lot more.  Things have changed.  Our pitiful excuse for a bench is now the envy of some NBA teams.  All our young Hawks that carried us last season are expected to be better this season.  Age and experience.  With all the new additions, all our young Hawks, including Trae and Collins, will get fewer minutes.  They should all play better because they will not get as tired as they did last season.

Collins wants to be here.  Travis wants him here.  He may be reasonable.  I hope.

No, he's not likely to start the all star game.  Be hard to even make the squad.  But, he's ours and he's good.  There are a lot of potential all star players in the NBA and lots of very high $$$ payroll players.  Until he's traded or let go because of his $$$$ demands, Collins is a Hawk and I'm a Hawk fan !!

[bleachkit]

Unless JC falls off this year, Hawks are going to pay JC. You sure as heck don't let him walk. If he goes to RFA, he will get a monster offer from someone. 

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Unless JC falls off this year, Hawks are going to pay JC. You sure as heck don't let him walk. If he goes to RFA, he will get a monster offer from someone. 

I’m comfortable with the offers he gets from others.

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Unless JC falls off this year, Hawks are going to pay JC. You sure as heck don't let him walk. If he goes to RFA, he will get a monster offer from someone. 

Who's going to give a 6'10 225 PF who plays limited defense and can't create his own shot a monster offer?

[AHF]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Who's going to give a 6'10 225 PF who plays limited defense and can't create his own shot a monster offer?

I think he’ll get a max offer but time will tell if the Hawks don’t work out an extension.  I wouldn’t be afraid with JC to let him to test the market if TS and JC’s agent can’t reach a meeting of the minds.

[mrhonline]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think he’ll get a max offer but time will tell if the Hawks don’t work out an extension.  I wouldn’t be afraid with JC to let him to test the market if TS and JC’s agent can’t reach a meeting of the minds.

The worry isn't the max. It's a 3 year-deal at the max with the third year as a player option.  It means you pay him a ton but don't get the long-term security that comes along with it.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, mrhonline said:

The worry isn't the max. It's a 3 year-deal at the max with the third year as a player option.  It means you pay him a ton but don't get the long-term security that comes along with it.

I don’t worry a ton about that.  He’d have to turn down a 5 year deal in the same range to bet on himself in that context.  It is a very rare thing that I wouldn’t let scare me into giving him a contract right now.  If he suffers an injury, has another PED issue or just shows his numbers won’t be nearly as big on a deeper team (like imagine 18 and 8 on 35% 3pt%) his market value will be way less than the max.  If he is great this year, we can offer him more than every other team in the league next summer.  
 

I’m happy if we work out an extension now but not petrified of him signing a 3 year $96M or whatever deal next offseason when we could offer him more than $160M (under those same circumstances).

There is a reason why young guys in that price range pretty much always take the 4-5 year big money deal.  It gives them security for life and a timeline that makes them an UFA while still in their 20’s. 

[NBASupes]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think he’ll get a max offer but time will tell if the Hawks don’t work out an extension.  I wouldn’t be afraid with JC to let him to test the market if TS and JC’s agent can’t reach a meeting of the minds.

I'll love to see the idiot who does that. He's not a big wing, he's a PF, teams want versatility from that position not the ole school 20/10 Zach Randolph types and he doesn't help winning. Yeah, I don't see that idiot out there.

Edited November 26, 2020 by NBASupes

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I'll love to see the idiot who does that. He's not a big wing, he's a PF, teams want versatility from that position not the ole school 20/10 Zach Randolph types and he doesn't help winning. Yeah, I don't see that idiot out there.

So now he's Zach Randolph?  Cmon, soupes.  Pick a lane.

[NBASupes]

Just now, kg01 said:

So now he's Zach Randolph?  Cmon, soupes.  Pick a lane.

Stop taking these comparison as exacts. I am just saying, one dimensional bigs who can score and rebound while they offer limited versatility isn't where the NBA is going at the PF position. Jon Issac is more valuable on the open market than JC is.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I don't know why you assume he will be 20/10 playing less minutes around much better offensive options than previous years. 

Cam is going to surpass him in points soon. 

Bogi won't be far behind. 

Trae numbers should go down but it's no guarantee it will as he always will have the ball. A big part of JC points is the fact that he gets double the touches as anyone on this team not named Trae. 

That will likely change in soon with our Ball movement addition to the offense and Bogi signing.

Also, his defense is still not good in space, the fit is still questionable between him and Capela and coaches vote on all around game and fans vote on excitement. Vince got the most votes while trash in the last two seasons than JC did as a Hawk. 

I know this site is Josh Smith going into year 4 on him where they have imaginary thoughts on this major level up from him but I don't see how that's possible. Please explain how? He's going to produce, he's going to put up numbers. I do believe that but this assumption that all will remain the same intrigues me from his pay JC the max supporters when I am a clear fan of JC but I see him within the same range as bigs like Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis 

The Josh Smith comparision has nothing to do with their game. Everything to do with how they are percieved at the early stages of their careers by Hawks fans on here. While it sounds funny now, a vast majority saw Josh Smith as clearly the 2nd best Hawk going into his 4th year and many felt he had the potential to be special and even better than Iso Joe. I thought that was bullshit and they were delusional. I feel the same way about JC max contract fans.

I don’t see it that way as far as offense goes. The great thing about JC is that his off ball movement , great screen setting, and IQ is extremely good offensively. He’s the type of player that don’t belong in the “need his touches” group . Players that need their touches need the ball in their hands to get their normal numbers.

But for JC as long as he’s around willing passers and playmakers...he’s going to get his points . Maybe a slight decrease for him and Trae in points but that’s expected like you mentioned.

Ultimately Collins is the perfect 3rd or 4th scorer on a team cause he can still avg 20 pts . He’s not Klay Thompson by any means but he has a style in his own right that will allow him to still put up similar numbers even if you add more scorers on the team.

I remember when everyone thought Klay wouldn’t get 20 per game just because KD joined the team . Crazy National comments like “there’s only one ball”...klay disagreed with it publicly and rightfully so.

[Carmine]

2 hours ago, gurpilo said:

I think is unfair to judge any player on last year results, team was terrible and poorly built to win, in fact was built to lose.

Young is an unique player and I have not researched but probably the unique case of an all-star so young playing for such a losing team. This situation makes Young an unique case, an amazing offensive weapon, an unique player but Collins not been considered as an all-star does not make him a bad player.

We have a full team this year, is likely we make the playoff with a team with Young as a 1st option and John as 2nd. We should be on a winning range 25-50 games of 72. We will see where we land and what is the real value of Trae and John.

My feeling, we win 35-43 games, winning more than 50% of the games, John averages 20 and 10 and plays significant role on the team. For that player I would gladly pay 100m$ for 4 years.

I'm not an advocate of paying John the max unless he clearly earns it. 4/$100 seems fair.

[bleachkit]

21 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don’t worry a ton about that.  He’d have to turn down a 5 year deal in the same range to bet on himself in that context.  It is a very rare thing that I wouldn’t let scare me into giving him a contract right now.  If he suffers an injury, has another PED issue or just shows his numbers won’t be nearly as big on a deeper team (like imagine 18 and 8 on 35% 3pt%) his market value will be way less than the max.  If he is great this year, we can offer him more than every other team in the league next summer.  
 

I’m happy if we work out an extension now but not petrified of him signing a 3 year $96M or whatever deal next offseason when we could offer him more than $160M (under those same circumstances).

There is a reason why young guys in that price range pretty much always take the 4-5 year big money deal.  It gives them security for life and a timeline that makes them an UFA while still in their 20’s. 

He's not going to have another PED issue. That was just trace amounts of a technically banned substance. 

[High5]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I'll love to see the idiot who does that. He's not a big wing, he's a PF, teams want versatility from that position not the ole school 20/10 Zach Randolph types and he doesn't help winning. Yeah, I don't see that idiot out there.

You say other people can't speak rationally about JC, but you're always the one who gets frustrated and starts exaggerating.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, JTB said:

I don’t see it that way as far as offense goes. The great thing about JC is that his off ball movement , great screen setting, and IQ is extremely good offensively. He’s the type of player that don’t belong in the “need his touches” group . Players that need their touches need the ball in their hands to get their normal numbers.

But for JC as long as he’s around willing passers and playmakers...he’s going to get his points . Maybe a slight decrease for him and Trae in points but that’s expected like you mentioned.

Ultimately Collins is the perfect 3rd or 4th scorer on a team cause he can still avg 20 pts . He’s not Klay Thompson by any means but he has a style in his own right that will allow him to still put up similar numbers even if you add more scorers on the team.

I remember when everyone thought Klay wouldn’t get 20 per game just because KD joined the team . Crazy National comments like “there’s only one ball”...klay disagreed with it publicly and rightfully so.

Klays touches have been literally the same before and with KD. Saying what the perception is does not matter as the data is visibly out there. Draymond was the person who suffered with KD as ultimately his touches were the one that took a massive hit. 

JC is in the top 13 in touches per game for forwards. My biggest issue is most of his touches leads to nothing. Not points like Cam or points or assists like Trae. It leads to nothing. JC and Julius Randle have some pointless ass touches. 

We change how that is, cut his touches to 45 to 48 per game, give the rest to Bogi and Cam. We should see a major jump in PPP but that will ultimately hurt JC but he needs to be a finisher especially with the lack of a consistent short roll pass.

Ya'll have a way more positive view of JC than I do and I like JC. Like I said, I do want him back. It's not like I want him gone.

8 minutes ago, High5 said:

You say other people can't speak rationally about JC, but you're always the one who gets frustrated and starts exaggerating.

What the hell am I exaggerating? 

[mrhonline]

28 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I'll love to see the idiot who does that. He's not a big wing, he's a PF, teams want versatility from that position not the ole school 20/10 Zach Randolph types and he doesn't help winning. Yeah, I don't see that idiot out there.

He'll be RFA. Teams will do what they have to do to get him away from Atlanta.

[mrhonline]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

I’m happy if we work out an extension now but not petrified of him signing a 3 year $96M or whatever deal next offseason when we could offer him more than $160M (under those same circumstances).

To be fair, that's not the two options we're discussing here. We're comparing 3/90 with 4/80 or whatever Supes is suggesting. The former is a no-brainer for JC.

[jy23]

People get married to their opinions and will say anything to convince themselves it’s real. To say JC only gets numbers bc he gets more touches than anybody like he wasn’t an extremely efficient scorer. 40% from 3 and close to 60% from the floor period. It’s amazing how hard you’re going for this man. I normally agree with you but this is a hill you’re going to die on alone