No Extension for John Collins

[macdaddy]

21 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't disagree but I also don't want us to end up with a $20M/year player on a max contract that is untradeable without mortgaging our future.  I think I'm just not as high on Collins as most people here.

Look at the teams dying for him now.   They know he wants a huge a contract and are undeterred.   So what's going to happen between now and a year from now that is going to make him not tradeable?   Teams are lining up now to pay the guy.  

[hazer]

28 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

The hypothetical was getting a star SG right now, not in 2 years.  I know our cap situation and it waterfalls out pretty favorably but the lineup the guy presented had Trae, Capela, Collins, star SG, and hunter in it.  If you want that lineup short-term or long-term -- and you're maxing JC -- you're looking at ~$95-105M for trae/JC/star SG, ~$20M for capela, and ~$10M for hunter before his rookie deal is up.  That's $125M minimum and leaves you with no room at all to fill out a bench.  In this hypothetical, you'd have to ship bogi and gallo for expirings and fill out the bench with scrubs.

I don't think it's wise to max JC.  The guy is a solid player but Trae is a huge contributor to his success.  We also need SOME flexibility down the road.  If Cam comes back after this offseason and takes a huge leap, we wouldn't have money to pay him and Hunter, and I know you guys wouldn't want them to walk either.  And a max JC contract will be hard to ship.

No, my hypothetical was match and keep Collins NOW and roll past the trade deadline with Bogi/Huerter/Cam so the long-play focus THEN becomes adding a superstar 2 at a later point to run with TY/DH/JC/CC. Ressler publicly stated on several occasions  he’d go into the luxury tax to sign a superstar if we were making playoffs and looked like that superstar could put us over the top.

[kg01]

There's no one on MIN's roster that I want over Collins.  Period.

[macdaddy]

#1 team in the east right now:  Tobias F Harris and Ben Simmons both are making more than it would take to max Collins

#1 team in the west right now:  Mike Conley and Rudy Gobert making more.  

Not every guy that gets max money is Giannis and KD.   Not every non-superstar who gets max money is untradeable. 

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, hazer said:

No, my hypothetical was match and keep Collins NOW and roll past the trade deadline with Bogi/Huerter/Cam so the long-play focus THEN becomes adding a superstar 2 at a later point to run with TY/DH/JC/CC. Ressler publicly stated on several occasions  he’d go into the luxury tax to sign a superstar if we were making playoffs and looked like that superstar could put us over the top.

Ah, got it -- that makes more sense.  Bogi contract will be the hardest piece to deal with but we could probably find a rebuilding team to dump.  I just don't know what SG would realistically do that for us.  Lavine seems the most likely for immediate impact and a team that might give up the player for a big haul.  Idk how the fit is there, but it feels like we need lockdown defenders more than anything to complement Trae.  Trae is going to make most guys look good on the offensive end.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

lol.

[hazer]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Ah, got it -- that makes more sense.  Bogi contract will be the hardest piece to deal with but we could probably find a rebuilding team to dump.  I just don't know what SG would realistically do that for us.  Lavine seems the most likely for immediate impact and a team that might give up the player for a big haul.  Idk how the fit is there, but it feels like we need lockdown defenders more than anything to complement Trae.  Trae is going to make most guys look good on the offensive end.

Lavine puts up good nimbers, but we should swing harder than that. But yeah, the trade deadline needs to come and go and the situation/season needs to play out before knowing who that superstar SG should/could be. But that should be the goal. Somebody may end up wanting out of a big team, and the Hawks being competitive in the 2nd round running TY/BB/DH/JC/CC out there could be an attractive draw to said somebody. Especially with a proven coach like Nate and an owner willing to spend like Ressler.

[mrhonline]

I don't why the Hawks would ever plan around any scenario other than Collins getting maxed, but they TELEGRAPHED their intentions regarding JC to every basketball team north of the equator for six months, so there's no telling.

[JeffS17]

9 minutes ago, hazer said:

Lavine puts up good nimbers, but we should swing harder than that. But yeah, the trade deadline needs to come and go and the situation/season needs to play out before knowing who that superstar SG should/could be. But that should be the goal. Somebody may end up wanting out of a big team, and the Hawks being competitive in the 2nd round running TY/BB/DH/JC/CC out there could be an attractive draw to said somebody. Especially with a proven coach like Nate and an owner willing to spend like Ressler.

Yeah, I think Lavine is a good fit but maybe not great?  It's unclear how well he can be defensively on a team that is pushing for a playoff appearance and has a defensive-minded coach.  He's been really impressive on offense though -- the guy creates his own shots and has been putting up big numbers on good efficiency.

I would love to swing for a bigger name but I just don't know if we will have that luxury

[JayBirdHawk]

41 minutes ago, hazer said:

superstar SG should/could be

Are these the top SGs:

James Harden, Paul George, CJ McCollum, Jrue Holiday, Bradley Beal, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Jaylen Brown, Zach Lavine.

[Sothron]

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Are these the top SGs:

James Harden, Paul George, CJ McCollum, Jrue Holiday, Bradley Beal, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Jaylen Brown.

Lavine is in that list. 

[sturt]

There is no actual cost to window shopping, just as there is no actual cost to putting displays in your windows.

In fact, there is a cost to not doing either of those.

It's sometimes called "due diligence."

It's also sometimes called being a responsible general manager.

And/but there is a potential opportunity cost  for failing to do/be that.

No problem with TS doing his job as best he can do it, and that's just how I categorize it all. That there are onlookers poised to gossip about what transactions might occur is a given and is not on its own especially compelling.

[bleachkit]

29 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Lavine is in that list. 

Didn't you get the memo? Lavine is not a "winner." Feel free to completely ignore the ridiculous numbers he's putting up this year.

[hawkman]

Isn't Collins a restricted free agent next off-season? Why all the chatter about trading him now instead of during the off-season via a sign and trade? Isn't this the worst possible time to trade him since he's still on his rookie contract? 

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, hawkman said:

Isn't Collins a restricted free agent next off-season? Why all the chatter about trading him now instead of during the off-season via a sign and trade? Isn't this the worst possible time to trade him since he's still on his rookie contract? 

Depends what we want back -- if we were going for a good player on their rookie deal it can be easier to salary match now rather than after we sign john to a larger deal.

[kg01]

20 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Didn't you get the memo? Lavine is not a "winner." Feel free to completely ignore the ridiculous numbers he's putting up this year.

Apparently you didn't get the memo where pretty much everyone sees his a high-level player.

Do they charge the same fare on that late bus?

6 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Isn't Collins a restricted free agent next off-season? Why all the chatter about trading him now instead of during the off-season via a sign and trade? Isn't this the worst possible time to trade him since he's still on his rookie contract? 

It's wild.  I mean, do you really want any rookie-contract guy who's team is willing to trade him?

Like, I'm sure DET would love to trade friggin Doumboya or w/e.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, hawkman said:

Isn't Collins a restricted free agent next off-season? Why all the chatter about trading him now instead of during the off-season via a sign and trade? Isn't this the worst possible time to trade him since he's still on his rookie contract? 

We won't get offered much in a SnT from a team that has capspace to sign him out right.  Think about what we offered the Kings in a SnT for Bogi: Snell and OKC 1st.  We'd end up with a $25 million TPE and a late pick or a 2nd.

[hawkzlova123]

Please sign Collins. He's so awesome 

[hawkman]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Apparently you didn't get the memo where pretty much everyone sees his a high-level player.

Do they charge the same fare on that late bus?

It's wild.  I mean, do you really want any rookie-contract guy who's team is willing to trade him?

Like, I'm sure DET would love to trade friggin Doumboya or w/e.

Trading Collins right now would grenade the season and destroy any credibility this franchise has built over the past few seasons. He's a core piece to this rebuild and has improved in every way except the counting stats that people claimed were "empty" anyway. These are just rumors but this is a bad look.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, hawkman said:

Trading Collins right now would grenade the season and destroy any credibility this franchise has built over the past few seasons. He's a core piece to this rebuild and has improved in every way except the counting stats that people claimed were "empty" anyway. These are just rumors but this is a bad look.

Like whatever miniscule gain we'd get by trading him is completely dwarfed by the credibility/perception hit they'd take.

Franchises that aren't free agent destinations absolutely have to make their living off developing guys through the draft and paying the guys that pan out.  Whatever contract he ends up with will be tradeable so what's the big deal.