No Extension for John Collins

[JayBirdHawk]

46 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You are taking this way too personal. JC don't know you. He don't care about you. He ain't gonna lend you no money when he signs that extension. You aren't Lyria or John Sr. Why are you taking this so personal? Get it grip my friend. By no means is it an insult to you that I think its foolish to pay JC what you think he should get.

That was in comparison to JC and I also said Hayward would get 25 million and he got 30 million. If you want to point out my obvious misses, point out my makes. 

This is pointless, I think paying JC the type of money you guys are advocating for to be stupid as hell. 

No it wasn't...you wanted to sign Harrell to $22 mil and start him, an energy big off the bench. I said if the option was to pay Harrell $22 vs paying a 23 year JC a max, I'd rather give that to JC.

You were Ok playing Hayward $30 million, the Hawks thankfully didn't. Now that's good GMing

You also said right after Charlotte gave him that deal it was a bad deal. So which is bad GMing - Hawks declining or Charlotte giving him the deal.

Make up your mind. 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

29 minutes ago, JTB said:

Not going to lie I was with him about getting Trez here lol ....I honestly thought Trez market was 15-21 mil per season  especially when he won sixth man and considering he’s still a young player!

I don’t recall the last time we had a young middle 20s sixth man winner. Seems like it’s been Crawford or Lou every season the past 10 years.

Anyways...it’s funny how things actually played out because I am certain that most  on here were saying bad idea to pay two players at the same position big contracts and well here we are doing just that with Gallo & Collins (bigger contract for JC on its way) . Personally I think it’s ok to do it this way.

Harrell is an energy big off the bench, that was my point all along. Gallo is a starter that has accepted a bench role with a varying offensive skillset.

Which would you rather pay $20 off the bench?

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No it wasn't...you wanted to sign Harrell to $22 mil and start him, an energy big off the bench. I said if the option was to pay Harrell $22 vs paying a 23 year JC a max, I'd rather give that to JC.

You were Ok playing Hayward $30 million, the Hawks thankfully didn't. Now that's good GMing

You also said right after Charlotte gave him that deal it was a bad deal. So which is bad GMing - Hawks declining or Charlotte giving him the deal.

Make up your mind. 

I am not okay with Hayward contract but I know there is a premium on big wings. They are the new centers.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No it wasn't...you wanted to sign Harrell to $22 mil and start him, an energy big off the bench. I said if the option was to pay Harrell $22 vs paying a 23 year JC a max, I'd rather give that to JC.

You were Ok playing Hayward $30 million, the Hawks thankfully didn't. Now that's good GMing

You also said right after Charlotte gave him that deal it was a bad deal. So which is bad GMing - Hawks declining or Charlotte giving him the deal.

Make up your mind. 

Stop it! I am not okay with Hayward contract. I think he's massively overpaid and it is bad GMing to give him that contract. But I knew he could get that as he's a big wing. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I don't know why you assume he will be 20/10 playing less minutes around much better offensive options than previous years. 

Cam is going to surpass him in points soon. 

Bogi won't be far behind. 

Trae numbers should go down but it's no guarantee it will as he always will have the ball. A big part of JC points is the fact that he gets double the touches as anyone on this team not named Trae. 

That will likely change in soon with our Ball movement addition to the offense and Bogi signing.

Also, his defense is still not good in space, the fit is still questionable between him and Capela and coaches vote on all around game and fans vote on excitement. Vince got the most votes while trash in the last two seasons than JC did as a Hawk. 

I know this site is Josh Smith going into year 4 on him where they have imaginary thoughts on this major level up from him but I don't see how that's possible. Please explain how? He's going to produce, he's going to put up numbers. I do believe that but this assumption that all will remain the same intrigues me from his pay JC the max supporters when I am a clear fan of JC but I see him within the same range as bigs like Myles Turner and Domantas Sabonis 

The Josh Smith comparision has nothing to do with their game. Everything to do with how they are percieved at the early stages of their careers by Hawks fans on here. While it sounds funny now, a vast majority saw Josh Smith as clearly the 2nd best Hawk going into his 4th year and many felt he had the potential to be special and even better than Iso Joe. I thought that was bullshit and they were delusional. I feel the same way about JC max contract fans.

 

I feel like Black Widow in The Avengers . . . when she finally figures out that Loki was going to use David Banner ( aka The Hulk ) to destroy the airship.

 

My theory:

 

So I know why Supes doesn't want Collins to get paid because he feels he's not worth it and is not as good as his numbers indicate.  But the REAL REASON is that it may affect the status of Cam and our ability to keep him, if he becomes real good.

We all know that Trae will get the max extension next season.  And he'll have all of the escalators to drive that contract close to 200M, and 35+ per year.  If Collins gets his MAX deal, that puts him in the 30+ a season.

In the end, it may not be enough money around to keep Cam around, especially if Ressler balks at paying the Luxury Tax.

So to make sure Cam gets HIS money, he wants John Collins gone.

 

 

 

[DS5]

So supes what do you think hawks should do with Collins then. Realistically, because 4/80 (or even 4/100) is obviously not going to happen. 

[kg01]

12 minutes ago, DS5 said:

So supes what do you think hawks should do with Collins then. Realistically, because 4/80 (or even 4/100) is obviously not going to happen. 

He wants us to trade him for Obi. 

[mrhonline]

I looked back at players in relatively similar situations as the Hawks & JC and zeroed in on Aaron Gordon.

His three years prior to the extension showed some individual success, but his teams were poor. He received a 4-yr, $76M extension that decreased annually (8%) and had ~$1M in possible annual incentives.

Assuming the Hawks offered the same % of the salary cap to John in his extension, that would be a 4-yr, $84M deal.

Their stats through three years:

Player	MP	PER	TS%	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%
John Collins	4977	21.0	.634	.304	11.0	22.9	9.3	1.0	3.2	11.8	21.4
Aaron Gordon	4958	14.9	.533	.285	6.9	17.4	9.7	1.5	1.9	9.4	18.3

 

Player	3PA	3P%	2PA	2P%	FTA	FT%	PF	ORtg	DRtg
John Collins	3.3	.369	15.5	.615	5.7	.757	5.2	121	112
Aaron Gordon	4.6	.289	12.0	.526	4.7	.699	4.1	109	108

The problem is that John is objectively a better player than Gordon - more efficient, more range, more active.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

I feel like Black Widow in The Avengers . . . when she finally figures out that Loki was going to use David Banner ( aka The Hulk ) to destroy the airship.

 

My theory:

 

So I know why Supes doesn't want Collins to get paid because he feels he's not worth it and is not as good as his numbers indicate.  But the REAL REASON is that it may affect the status of Cam and our ability to keep him, if he becomes real good.

We all know that Trae will get the max extension next season.  And he'll have all of the escalators to drive that contract close to 200M, and 35+ per year.  If Collins gets his MAX deal, that puts him in the 30+ a season.

In the end, it may not be enough money around to keep Cam around, especially if Ressler balks at paying the Luxury Tax.

So to make sure Cam gets HIS money, he wants John Collins gone.

 

 

 

Wrong. Tony is gonna pay and young wings are priorities to get theirs. I ain't worry about that. I am worry about flexibility and trades as well as a bad contract can limit our potential as a franchise. 

3 hours ago, DS5 said:

So supes what do you think hawks should do with Collins then. Realistically, because 4/80 (or even 4/100) is obviously not going to happen. 

4/80 median

4/90 max 

I've been pretty firm on this. 

[NBASupes]

21 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

I looked back at players in relatively similar situations as the Hawks & JC and zeroed in on Aaron Gordon.

His three years prior to the extension showed some individual success, but his teams were poor. He received a 4-yr, $76M extension that decreased annually (8%) and had ~$1M in possible annual incentives.

Assuming the Hawks offered the same % of the salary cap to John in his extension, that would be a 4-yr, $84M deal.

Their stats through three years:

Player	MP	PER	TS%	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%
John Collins	4977	21.0	.634	.304	11.0	22.9	9.3	1.0	3.2	11.8	21.4
Aaron Gordon	4958	14.9	.533	.285	6.9	17.4	9.7	1.5	1.9	9.4	18.3

 

Player	3PA	3P%	2PA	2P%	FTA	FT%	PF	ORtg	DRtg
John Collins	3.3	.369	15.5	.615	5.7	.757	5.2	121	112
Aaron Gordon	4.6	.289	12.0	.526	4.7	.699	4.1	109	108

The problem is that John is objectively a better player than Gordon - more efficient, more range, more active.

Is he really objectively better, Gordon is a lot more active on defense and can guard wings but ultimately, his potential is capped due to his lack of range, efficiency, and he's limited in the ways he can score. His defense has improved by bunches since his rookie year till now but ultimately, he's not a 3&D wing. He's just a defensive minded forward with excellent transition skills. He's like a non-passing, smaller, Ben Simmons with less defensive versatility. 

 

Both are high end JAGs to me. Gordon was going into his contract year and he is right now. I see JC the same way. Both are productive players but I don't know if JC has helped as much as Gordon but considering Gordon at the end of his rookie deal, I can see the comparison. I honestly like it a lot. 

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Is he really objectively better, 

Yes.  It isn’t close.  When you bring in Sabonis, then you are having a conversation.  Josh Smith and Aaron Gordon are not worth discussing.  Obvious gap.

While you and I don’t see eye to eye on JC’s value, this is a good reason to let it ride this season and see how JC performs in a winning environment.  If he steps up, he’ll get paid.  If he steps back, then your caution will be well heeded and we won’t be discussing a 9 figure contract.

[NBASupes]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

Yes.  It isn’t close.  When you bring in Sabonis, then you are having a conversation.  Josh Smith and Aaron Gordon are not worth discussing.  Obvious gap.

While you and I don’t see eye to eye on JC’s value, this is a good reason to let it ride this season and see how JC performs in a winning environment.  If he steps up, he’ll get paid.  If he steps back, then your caution will be well heeded and we won’t be discussing a 9 figure contract.

I really dont think you w0uld be getting this positive spin on the general message boards. I just created a JC v. Issac thread and JC is getting shredded. 

[mrhonline]

42 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Is he really objectively better

Unequivocally. And, frankly, if you can't grant that, no one is going to want to debate this with you.

[mrhonline]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

When you bring in Sabonis, then you are having a conversation. 

Agreed. And I have no problems with the J. Isaac discussion either (ignoring his health issues). He's a monster defensively.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

Unequivocally. And, frankly, if you can't grant that, no one is going to want to debate this with you.

But is he? I know on Hawksquawk, it's not a debate and one I dont care enough to make. Neither are changing the tide for me. But if we went to RealGM, who would they choose? Would it be 100 to zero for JC?

I have Jon Issac v. JC and only a Hawk fan is going for JC

I think JC is more valuable than Gordon for us at least but I dont know if this is a no brainer that the Squawk would like to think it is.

Edited November 27, 2020 by NBASupes

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I really dont think you w0uld be getting this positive spin on the general message boards. I just created a JC v. Issac thread and JC is getting shredded. 

Go ahead and start a thread focusing on Cam vs other elite young guards and see if they don’t torch him.  Or start one on Trae vs guys you think are good comparisons for his impact. 

Hawks always get shredded on there.  Been like that for more than 20 years.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Go ahead and start a thread focusing on Cam vs other elite young guards and see if they don’t torch him.  Or start one on Trae vs guys you think are good comparisons for his impact. 

Hawks always get shredded on there.  Been like that for more than 20 years.

Of course but that's bullshit. I already go at the necks of anyone on RealGM's Cam Reddish thread and made it a mission for them to know when to bow down and kiss his tail to any hater out there. You know I dont play on RealGM with a hater.

Trae Young is much better than what they think. They blame him for all of our losing and it's not fair. That's why this year, I'll be in their asses too for hating on Trae.

Sorry but JC has a non hate generating name. No one has expectations for him. He wasn't voted by his peers to have the best career by his peers. He isn't compared to RealGM son named Luka Doncic. People are more honest with JC than they are with Trae and Cam. They don't watch enough games on Hunter as well so that's nonsense as well. 

 

[mrhonline]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I've been pretty firm on this. 

That isn't necessarily virtuous, though.

Market realities change, and a good agent adapts. You can be certain that JC's agent knows that the Hawks have no practical cap space to replace him next year. You can be certain he knows that Fox and Bam got the full max. You can be certain he knows that John is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA and the longest tenured Hawk. You can be certain he knows how well Trae plays with John.

It's not as simple as what your personal valuation of JC is.

[NBASupes]

14 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

That isn't necessarily virtuous, though.

Market realities change, and a good agent adapts. You can be certain that JC's agent knows that the Hawks have no practical cap space to replace him next year. You can be certain he knows that Fox and Bam got the full max. You can be certain he knows that John is one of the most efficient scorers in the NBA and the longest tenured Hawk. You can be certain he knows how well Trae plays with John.

It's not as simple as what your personal valuation of JC is.

Of course but JC has to be realistic. If he wants Bam money, he needs to do Bam shit. If he can do that, give him the max. If he can't and wants that, I'll rather we go into 2020-2021 with no extension 

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Of course but that's bullshit. I already go at the necks of anyone on RealGM's Cam Reddish thread and made it a mission for them to know when to bow down and kiss his tail to any hater out there. You know I dont play on RealGM with a hater.

Trae Young is much better than what they think. They blame him for all of our losing and it's not fair. That's why this year, I'll be in their asses too for hating on Trae.

Sorry but JC has a non hate generating name. No one has expectations for him. He wasn't voted by his peers to have the best career by his peers. He isn't compared to RealGM son named Luka Doncic. People are more honest with JC than they are with Trae and Cam. They don't watch enough games on Hunter as well so that's nonsense as well. 

 

They underestimate all three of these guys and will probably do it with Hunter, OO and Capela as well as long as they wear Hawks jerseys.

If you’d debated Al Horford in his prime while he was a Hawk, you’d find he was underrated as well.