John Collins

[jmac54]

The more I watch this team the more I see we may not need Collins anymore. I mean he is a very good player offensively but still quite lost on defense. And he isn't going to be that 20&10 player on this team at least because we just have a lot of depth on this team. I really think Hunter could play the 4 permanently with Capela at 5. I think Collins will want the max money regardless of how he performs cause some team out there will give him the max. I know it's early in the season but just an observation. I could warm up to a Collins trade if it's for the right players in return. 

[Gray Mule]

Hawks didn't offer enough.

Collins wanted too much.

Now, neither side is really happy.

[Gray Mule]

Story completely off subject (Except it's about money).

Young lad, out walking alone at night.  From out of the darkness, a bigger lad jumped him.  Robbery was the motive.  The young lad put up a terrific fight.  Finally subdued, his attacker went through his pockets and found $1.26.  "You fought like this for only $1.26?"

"Heck no.  I thought you were after the $20.00 in my shoe!"

[macdaddy]

I disagree.   The guy just flat out makes a difference on the court.   With so many options now he's not getting the touches he did last year but he still puts his stamp on the game.   His plus/minus were +21, +15 (game high), 0 (only other starter with 0 was Trae.  Rest were minus).   Plus/minus obviously doesn't mean everything but I still think he's a high impact player. 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I disagree.   The guy just flat out makes a difference on the court.   With so many options now he's not getting the touches he did last year but he still puts his stamp on the game.   His plus/minus were +21, +15 (game high), 0 (only other starter with 0 was Trae.  Rest were minus).   Plus/minus obviously doesn't mean everything but I still think he's a high impact player. 

+/- isn't a good indicator.

[macdaddy]

Just now, NBASupes said:

+/- isn't a good indicator.

Lol.  So you disagree that he's played well?   He was the guy who basically closed the game out in the fourth quarter last night.

[marco102]

It's been three games and we are saying what we don't need.  John, like everyone else is rusty.  He's been in foul trouble every game, yet look at his efficiency.  He started slow last year and then had monster numbers. I don't think his numbers will be huge like that, but I believe he will have an impact on winning.  His defense hasn't been bad, he's just been fouling. 

I have no understanding why y'all want to jettison talent off this team like we are the 2017 warriors.  We need every damn good player we can have.  Everyone will have a role.

[gurpilo]

I think he is a fantastic player and he makes a difference on the court offensively. We have so many options that is going to be difficult for him to have many shots on offense but he should be clearly getting more than the 9 shots he is making now. Also 24 mpg seems really low, specially without Capela.

Defensively he still needs to make an impact but his defensive rating is good on the team this season, even better than with Hunter.

Having said that I don't think he is any near a max player. 20m$ seems adequate to the player Collins is.

Edited December 29, 2020 by gurpilo

[NBASupes]

Just now, macdaddy said:

Lol.  So you disagree that he's played well?   He was the guy who basically closed the game out in the fourth quarter last night.

I don't agree or disagree. I just said +/- is a poor indicator. Sometimes you can be on the court with someone else getting blasted and it shows as your error too which is not the case. Look at Nathan Knight. He was killing but ended with a negative but he played well on both ends.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, gurpilo said:

I think he is a fantastic player and he makes a difference on the court offensively. We have so many options that is going to be difficult for him to have many shots on offense but he should be clearly getting more than the 9 shots he is making now. Also 24 mpg seems really low, specially without Capela.

Defensively he still needs to make an impact but his defensive rating is good on the team this season, even better than with Hunter.

He's been in foul trouble every game. 

[aali34]

John's doing fine so far. His output is still the same, he's just playing less due to fouls. He didn't do too much untill the 4th and still ended up as the third leading scorer while having the 3rd lowest amount of attempts. He isn't completely comfortable with everyone yet and is trying to mix in being aggressive while also being a cog in the machine.

He started slow when coming back from last year's suspension too.

I do think they need to do a better job of going to him, especially when Trae's off the court.

[NBASupes]

Teams are still selling out for Trae PnR. Its opening up everything else but it hurts the bigs

[JeffS17]

I don't agree or disagree but I'll say this -- having a deep bench and a bunch of good players is amazing and it's going to lead to a lot of regular season success, but once you get to the playoffs, you want your BEST players getting a lot of minutes.  The difference between having great players on the court and good or above average is what will win or lose you a series.  If John keeps working like he has every single season and improves his defense/rebounding, we want to keep him. 

 

You want quality in the playoffs, not quantity.  Look at all of your deep bench regular season warriors from the past decade and how they've fared, including our 2015 Hawks.  I'm not advocating one way or another on John but I really just want to call out the fact our deep bench doesn't matter as much when there's 7-9 guys in the rotation come playoffs series.

 

Also, we're spreading the ball out right now and getting everyone on the team some usage because we're still figuring out what works and doesn't work with the new roster.  I imagine by the second half of the season we'll start to see more routine substitutions, guys settling into their roles, and a little more consistency

[jmac54]

I did say John is a very good player offensively. But I read somewhere Collins turned down 4 years at 90m. Which means whether the Hawks like it or not hes still going to want the max or close to it. Even though his production will take a dip most likely. I just think if the right trade comes along Collins becomes tradeable and we can move Hunter over to the 4 who is just a better defender. And Capela would be the Pick and Roll player anyways. Now I don't know who John could be traded for but I feel like it's going to happen at some point if he really doesn't start putting up his usual stats or even better. Or if he doesn't drastically improve on defence. 

[marco102]

5 minutes ago, jmac54 said:

I did say John is a very good player offensively. But I read somewhere Collins turned down 4 years at 90m. Which means whether the Hawks like it or not hes still going to want the max or close to it. Even though his production will take a dip most likely. I just think if the right trade comes along Collins becomes tradeable and we can move Hunter over to the 4 who is just a better defender. And Capela would be the Pick and Roll player anyways. Now I don't know who John could be traded for but I feel like it's going to happen at some point if he really doesn't start putting up his usual stats or even better. Or if he doesn't drastically improve on defence. 

Who are you trading John for $4 million with his production? 

In 24 minutes, he's averaging 14 pts 6.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists on 54% shooting. 

Again, it's been 3 games. Look at his first few games last year before he took off.  

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Who are you trading John for $4 million with his production? 

In 24 minutes, he's averaging 14 pts 6.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists on 54% shooting. 

Again, it's been 3 games. Look at his first few games last year before he took off.  

Yeah, to add to this -- if the way we're spreading minutes right now continues -- it makes a lot more sense to pay attention to per 36 stats than the per game stats.

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Who are you trading John for $4 million with his production? 

In 24 minutes, he's averaging 14 pts 6.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists on 54% shooting. 

Again, it's been 3 games. Look at his first few games last year before he took off.  

I don't think people think this part through enough.

Your earlier point was also salient.  Do people think we're on top of the mountain because we're 3-0?  Like we're in a position to jettison off talent like we've got it all figured out.

People need to understand it's a long season and, although his counting stats haven't been impressive, nothing's happened that suggests we "don't need" Collins now.

Like Nathan Toppin -er- I mean Nathan Knight popped for a solid half-a-game and we don't need Collins now?  C'mon, people.

Sorry for that Freudian slip on Nathan's name, btw. 

[EazyRoc]

If you can afford to keep him without signing him to an albatross like contract you keep him. Even if he isn’t in the long term plans, he could be a valuable piece in a trade to get us another superstar.

[bleachkit]

29 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Who are you trading John for $4 million with his production? 

In 24 minutes, he's averaging 14 pts 6.3 rebounds and 1.3 assists on 54% shooting. 

Again, it's been 3 games. Look at his first few games last year before he took off.  

You only trade him if the trade makes sense. Meaning we get a fair deal. If it's a low ball, then hell no.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

You only trade him if the trade makes sense. Meaning we get a fair deal. If it's a low ball, then hell no.

That's literally true for every player, bleachk.  Thanks for your contribution.