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Steve Nash criticizes Trae Young


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20 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Ehhh this one wasn't the most egregious but it wasn't exactly a natural pull up jumper... look at this still from 0:04

 

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That's not how Trae shoots... two hands on the ball hunged at his hip???  Trae has like 1 foul every 3 games that arguably should be an offensive foul.  This probably isn't one of them but it's by no means a genuine shot attempt -- if it was he would have dribbled closer and floated it in.  Why else is he going to pull up just inside the 3P line with this awkward shooting form lol... I get it Trae is our guy and we gotta defend him but I'll be happy if he takes this out of his game and focuses on scoring.  I really do think part of the reason some of his finishing around the rim is suffering is because he's focused on too much right now, including baiting fouls.

 

If you look just before that, the defender has his hand on Trae's hip trying to slow him down which let Trae know that he was way too close to avoid fouling him.  As long as Trae stopped moving, the defender was going to crash into him so it then becomes a matter of whether Trae wants to put up a shot and draw a shooting foul or to just let him crash and draw a non-shooting foul.  Seems like an obvious choice even if time didn't permit him to use his normal shooting motion.

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26 minutes ago, AHF said:

If you look just before that, the defender has his hand on Trae's hip trying to slow him down which let Trae know that he was way too close to avoid fouling him.  As long as Trae stopped moving, the defender was going to crash into him so it then becomes a matter of whether Trae wants to put up a shot and draw a shooting foul or to just let him crash and draw a non-shooting foul.  Seems like an obvious choice even if time didn't permit him to use his normal shooting motion.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting the outcome wasn't good -- we got two free throws and the defender picked up a foul.  That's a great play on paper, but that doesn't make it great to watch... and my other point still stands which is I think Trae has been trying to expand his game to foul baiting when I think he should be focusing on his core game.

 

The reason I bring up the genuine shooting motion is because imo this is how you tweak the rule set to allow refs the judgement to either not call this or make it an offensive foul if it's egregious enough.  No one wants to watch guys like Lowry/Harden/Dame/now Trae run around a screen at the top of the key and heave up a two handed grandpa shot to draw a foul.  It's bad for the sport.  The game and the rules have migrated to favor offense enough and now defenders have to worry if they're going to get brake checked tailing the ball handler.

Also, I generally despise the "smart basketball" argument -- like where does it end here?  Is it smart basketball when Harden hooks guys arms and gets fouls?  Is it smart basketball when guys are clawing/holding Curry off-ball because the refs aren't seeing it?  Is it smart basketball when Grayson Allen stomped Trae's foot and didn't get called for a foul???  Good outcome doesn't = smart basketball for me.  I'd rather our guys retain some dignity on the court.

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11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting the outcome wasn't good -- we got two free throws and the defender picked up a foul.  That's a great play on paper, but that doesn't make it great to watch... and my other point still stands which is I think Trae has been trying to expand his game to foul baiting when I think he should be focusing on his core game.

 

The reason I bring up the genuine shooting motion is because imo this is how you tweak the rule set to allow refs the judgement to either not call this or make it an offensive foul if it's egregious enough.  No one wants to watch guys like Lowry/Harden/Dame/now Trae run around a screen at the top of the key and heave up a two handed grandpa shot to draw a foul.  It's bad for the sport.  The game and the rules have migrated to favor offense enough and now defenders have to worry if they're going to get brake checked tailing the ball handler.

Also, I generally despise the "smart basketball" argument -- like where does it end here?  Is it smart basketball when Harden hooks guys arms and gets fouls?  Is it smart basketball when guys are clawing/holding Curry off-ball because the refs aren't seeing it?  Is it smart basketball when Grayson Allen stomped Trae's foot and didn't get called for a foul???  Good outcome doesn't = smart basketball for me.  I'd rather our guys retain some dignity on the court.

I see two positives.  If you start eliminating these calls, which are indeed fouls even if folks think they are 'ugly', then you're back to only superstars getting cheap free throws.   But this isn't just about getting free throws.  It keeps defenders honest.   You start calling these offensive fouls or no calls then you've got defenders able to be draped all over the ball handlers and we're back to watching games that end 92-86 with tons of turnovers.  

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51 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting the outcome wasn't good -- we got two free throws and the defender picked up a foul.  That's a great play on paper, but that doesn't make it great to watch... and my other point still stands which is I think Trae has been trying to expand his game to foul baiting when I think he should be focusing on his core game.

 

The reason I bring up the genuine shooting motion is because imo this is how you tweak the rule set to allow refs the judgement to either not call this or make it an offensive foul if it's egregious enough.  No one wants to watch guys like Lowry/Harden/Dame/now Trae run around a screen at the top of the key and heave up a two handed grandpa shot to draw a foul.  It's bad for the sport.  The game and the rules have migrated to favor offense enough and now defenders have to worry if they're going to get brake checked tailing the ball handler.

Also, I generally despise the "smart basketball" argument -- like where does it end here?  Is it smart basketball when Harden hooks guys arms and gets fouls?  Is it smart basketball when guys are clawing/holding Curry off-ball because the refs aren't seeing it?  Is it smart basketball when Grayson Allen stomped Trae's foot and didn't get called for a foul???  Good outcome doesn't = smart basketball for me.  I'd rather our guys retain some dignity on the court.

In this case if the ref whistles his hand on Trae's hip, then it is a non-shooting foul and everyone wins.  If you let the defender drag him as he tries to accelerate into the lane and don't make the call, then you encourage the offensive player to do something like this.

With respect to your other examples, this is not like those where those players are committing fouls that just aren't called.

Harden should be called for hooking the defender.  He fouled them.

The guys grabbing Steph off the ball should be called for fouls.  They fouled them.

Grayson Allen should be called for attempting to trip his opponent and ejected from the game based on his repeat attempts to injure opponents in this way.  He is breaking the rules and attempting to injure an opposing player.

In all these cases, just calling the game correctly fixes the problem.  The issue is that refs are human and aren't perfect and they don't catch everything.  So these other players you mention break the rules and try to get away with their fouls going uncalled.  That isn't what Trae is doing.  

Now it wouldn't break my heart if they did call guys for hand checking Trae and if Trae initiated contact but unnaturally jumping backwards that he didn't get the benefit of a foul call since he initiated the contact and wasn't being impeded by the defender.  But you can't both let the defender put his hands on Trae and expect Trae to ignore that.

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55 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I see two positives.  If you start eliminating these calls, which are indeed fouls even if folks think they are 'ugly', then you're back to only superstars getting cheap free throws.   But this isn't just about getting free throws.  It keeps defenders honest.   You start calling these offensive fouls or no calls then you've got defenders able to be draped all over the ball handlers and we're back to watching games that end 92-86 with tons of turnovers.  

I'm not looking for one of the extremes, just call the offensive foul if a guy jumps backwards (Trae has done it a couple times this year), and call the hand checking/illegal defense as @AHF mentions.  I don't think you have to have one of the extremes... the problem is right now basically no matter what the refs give the offensive player the advantage.

I still think Trae shouldn't focus on it as an opportunity to get fouls/points though.  You can see the wheels turning in his head when he drives to the basket, debating whether he wants to 1. drive in for a layup 2. settle for floater 3. kick outside to a 3P shooter 4. dump it to a big man underneath and now 5. bait a foul.  It's too much to be considering in a 1 second span imo and something he shouldn't be adding to his game until he develops further as more of a true PG mold they seem to be aiming for this season.

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6 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I'm not looking for one of the extremes, just call the offensive foul if a guy jumps backwards (Trae has done it a couple times this year), and call the hand checking/illegal defense as @AHF mentions.  I don't think you have to have one of the extremes... the problem is right now basically no matter what the refs give the offensive player the advantage.

I still think Trae shouldn't focus on it as an opportunity to get fouls/points though.  You can see the wheels turning in his head when he drives to the basket, debating whether he wants to 1. drive in for a layup 2. settle for floater 3. kick outside to a 3P shooter 4. dump it to a big man underneath and now 5. bait a foul.  It's too much to be considering in a 1 second span imo and something he shouldn't be adding to his game until he develops further as more of a true PG mold they seem to be aiming for this season.

This guy gets it.

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4 hours ago, JTB said:

What’s the official rule for when a player jumps backwards after he is pass his defender?

The rules don’t differentiate which way a player can move.  Forward, left, right, backwards, etc.  It is all just movement.   If the defender isn’t set, it is a defensive foul almost every time the offensive player barrels into you.  

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4 minutes ago, AHF said:

The rules don’t differentiate which way a player can move.  Forward, left, right, backwards, etc.  It is all just movement.   If the defender isn’t set, it is a defensive foul almost every time the offensive player barrels into you.  

Defenders really don't have a lot of leeway. Defending without fouling is an art unto itself. 

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