Official Game Thread: Cavaliers at Hawks

[Gray Mule]

19 hours ago, AHF said:

Too much ego for these guys.  They'd rather miss more shots than look silly hitting more of them.  It isn't just Capela.  It is all bad FT shooters.  Ego.

Watch as he shoots line drives.  They are great in baseball.  Terrible in the NBA from the free throw line.  Perhaps, if someone with the Hawks hears, they will act and attempt to fix this.

Capela is too good otherwise to not want to correct this flaw in his game.

[JeffS17]

16 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Dwight Howard said pretty much that, when someone mentioned the idea of shooting FTs underhanded.

I can't blame them you know those merch sales going to take a hit when you start grandma stroking at the line

[macdaddy]

I used to think they should underhand the FTs but I don't really believe that's anymore perfectible than just shooting.   Some guys just can't shoot.   There's no reason to believe that every player should be able to shoot 80% from the line just like not every player can shoot 3s.

[AHF]

26 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I used to think they should underhand the FTs but I don't really believe that's anymore perfectible than just shooting.   Some guys just can't shoot.   There's no reason to believe that every player should be able to shoot 80% from the line just like not every player can shoot 3s.

Can't get perfect but it is pretty simple in terms of shot angle.  Big men tend to have more trouble from the line due to the lack of arc in their shots.  Underhanded fixes that.  

https://detroitjockcity.com/2017/05/31/underhanded-free-throws-work-dont-players-shoot/

Quote

Barry is the world’s leading underhanded free throw apologist. He even convinced his teammate, George Johnson, to use the technique, and Johnson’s free throw percentage increased from 41.2% in his rookie season to a 69.4% career mark. He shot over 70% from the line eight times.

Perhaps the most famous example of a player making the switch to an underhand technique was Wilt Chamberlain. In 1961-62, Chamberlain increased his free throw percentage by nearly 11% from the previous season, up to his career high, 61.3%. He used the technique during his historic 100-point game on March 2, 1962, setting an NBA record which still stands by scoring 28 points from the line.

However, despite the clear improvement he made, Chamberlain eventually switched back to his regular technique. It didn’t go very well.

...

In modern basketball, there are just as few examples of underhanded free throw shooters. Chinanu Onuaku brought his underhanded shot to the NBA from Louisville, where it bolstered his shooting percentage from 46.7% to 58.9%.  (Going underhanded, Onuaku shot 100% from the line in the NBA and over 68% from the line in the G-League despite bad technique).

 

It is all about ego.

Quote

Shaquille O’Neal, one of the worst free throw shooters ever, told Rick Barry he would never shoot his free throws the way Berry did.

“Sorry, can’t do it, Rick,” he says he told Barry, “I’d rather shoot zero percent, too cool for that.”

Chamberlain echoed this sentiment in his autobiography, saying “I felt silly, like a sissy, shooting underhanded. I know I was wrong, I know some of the best foul shooters in history shot that way. I just couldn’t do it.”

Andre Drummond

 

@AndreDrummond

Let me make this clear.... I'm not shooting free throws underhand.. #Relax

On the science:

Quote

But a 2008 feature in Discover Magazine cited research from physics professors that argued underhand shooting provided a superior arc and spin to the ball, both of which increased the odds of making a shot. Physics professor Peter Brancazio argued that big men tend to struggle with free throws more than shorter players because their release point is higher, making the basketball's angle of entry sharper when it arrives at the hoop.

From Discover:

"'Because of the sharp angle of the typical overhand throw, there ends up being a much smaller window for the ball to go in,'" [Brancazio said]. If the ball comes down at the basket from a steeper angle, the way it does if tossed up in the high arc characteristic of an underhand throw, the margin reappears. 'That means there's a far greater chance of making the basket,' he says."

Another researcher, Tom Steiger, noted that the sideways motion created by the elbow in a foul shot is a liability for basketball players -- some more than others.

"If they are sticking out, that can easily add an unwanted nudge to the ball, which results in a missed shot," writes Discover. Steiger noted that the wrist, elbow and shoulder all have to move properly for a made free-throw to occur, and these extra degrees of movement increase the risk of an error.

Underhanded throws, meanwhile, are performed with perfect bodily symmetry, and with fewer degrees of motion. Plus, the underhanded throw can increase the amount of backspin on the ball, which makes shots hitting the back of the rim much more likely to drop in.

http://www.thepostgame.com/eye-performance/201511/free-throws-granny-style-louisville-chinanu-onuaku-rick-barry

[bleachkit]

41 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I can't blame them you know those merch sales going to take a hit when you start grandma stroking at the line

Um, those Capela jerseys aren't exactly flying off the shelves. He's not big enough a name to worry about if his personal branding might be affected by his free throw shooting technique. He should do whatever he can to improve it, his free throw misses might have just cost us a game.

[High5]

It is just ego. From a marketing standpoint I think it would be a huge boon. Everyone would be talking about you. There would be jokes, but even more praise for putting your ego aside. 

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, High5 said:

It is just ego. From a marketing standpoint I think it would be a huge boon. Everyone would be talking about you. There would be jokes, but even more praise for putting your ego aside. 

When you aren't really even a blip on the marketing radar, I hardly see how it could hurt.  It would also let you be on the floor to close games and give you the chance to make memorable plays where you might otherwise have to be benched.  If Capela ever wants to be an All-Star, doing something to push his FT% to 70% would be a big step in the right direction and not just because of the additional points that would get him and wins it would get the team.

[RedDawg#8]

On 1/2/2021 at 10:35 PM, marco102 said:

Trae hasn't shown you enough?

Trae is a face the rim, shot maker. IF and only if he is getting calls, then yes he can close out games. But there is a reason the best teams have 2 stars. 

When Trae is off, and not getting calls, we are sunk.

We need a back to the basket, double team in the post drawing kind of closer. When shots aren't falling from the outside, having that wing or big who can get cheapies down low is a huge plus.

We dont have a go to guy in that mold on the roster, but guys like Gallo have the skill to play that way. Dre and Collins as well but they are more raw at it. 

[RedDawg#8]

2 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Trae is a face the rim, shot maker. IF and only if he is getting calls, then yes he can close out games. But there is a reason the best teams have 2 stars. 

When Trae is off, and not getting calls, we are sunk.

We need a back to the basket, double team in the post drawing kind of closer. When shots aren't falling from the outside, having that wing or big who can get cheapies down low is a huge plus. In the past it was Joe Johnson or Millsap, Smitty and Nique if you go further back. Those guys have something Trae will never have, and that is size. He is special, but he will likely never have a back to the basket game. 

We dont have a go to guy in that mold on the roster, but guys like Gallo have the skill to play that way. Dre and Collins as well but they are more raw at it. 

 

[HawkItus]

So a 7 foot 330 lb man thinks shooting underhand would make him uncool how?  He shoots underhand at the free throw, but dunks on 3 guys in the paint while breaking rims.  This culture is mystifying.

[marco102]

9 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Trae is a face the rim, shot maker. IF and only if he is getting calls, then yes he can close out games. But there is a reason the best teams have 2 stars. 

When Trae is off, and not getting calls, we are sunk.

We need a back to the basket, double team in the post drawing kind of closer. When shots aren't falling from the outside, having that wing or big who can get cheapies down low is a huge plus.

We dont have a go to guy in that mold on the roster, but guys like Gallo have the skill to play that way. Dre and Collins as well but they are more raw at it. 

I think this is a strawman here.  Trae's shown plenty of ability to get his shot off to close games and win us games.  You take one of his worst games of his most recent career and say we NEED a closer. We already have one.  

This entire he needs free throws to score is being blow out of proportion.  His shots aren't falling right now, but when he gets in rhythm, he'll be fine closing out games because he'll have the ability to open things up for others or get us a basket.

Edited January 4, 2021 by marco102

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

When you aren't really even a blip on the marketing radar, I hardly see how it could hurt.  It would also let you be on the floor to close games and give you the chance to make memorable plays where you might otherwise have to be benched.  If Capela ever wants to be an All-Star, doing something to push his FT% to 70% would be a big step in the right direction and not just because of the additional points that would get him and wins it would get the team.

The reality is these guys are getting paid either way.  No one wants to be a meme on social media for shooting like that, especially when/if he misses clutch time free throws shooting like that

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I think this is a strawman here.  Trae's shown plenty of ability to get his shot off to close games and win us games.  You take one of his worst games of his most recent career and say we NEED a closer. We already have one.  

This entire he needs free throws to score is being blow out of proportion.  His shots aren't falling right now, but when he gets in rhythm, he'll be fine closing out games because he'll have the ability to open things up for others or get us a basket.

  Saying we need a closer because of a couple bad games is like saying the Nets need a closer because KD/Kyrie missed game winners last night.

[RedDawg#8]

29 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I think this is a strawman here.  Trae's shown plenty of ability to get his shot off to close games and win us games.  You take one of his worst games of his most recent career and say we NEED a closer. We already have one.  

This entire he needs free throws to score is being blow out of proportion.  His shots aren't falling right now, but when he gets in rhythm, he'll be fine closing out games because he'll have the ability to open things up for others or get us a basket.

Disagree with the strawman accusation. I never said Trae wasnt a closer. That's not my stance, that is someone else's. My stance is every team worth its salt in this league has at least 2 stars and at least one that can get buckets in the post. Every contender has that. 

That doesn't take anything away from Trae. He has nuts of steel and the heart of a lion. He can draw fouls, yes. But we all have seen when he isnt hitting from the outside, it makes him easier to defend without fouling.

If Trae was even just 6'3 and 205 maybe, I bet he would've told everybody to get out his way and just started posting up. Because he has that kind of mindset. But he is not big enough to do that, and may never be. So, as we are putting the finishing touches on building this era of the Hawks, the second star that we need anyway, needs to have a back to basket game.

I dont think that diminishes Trae at all. He needs a running mate just like everyone else did to get a ring.

Could that be JC, maybe, but coach has to develop that part of his game. Dre has the ability, but isn't consistent either. Gallo can do it, but there is a reason he is a career role player.

[AHF]

37 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

The reality is these guys are getting paid either way.  No one wants to be a meme on social media for shooting like that, especially when/if he misses clutch time free throws shooting like that

You'd hope some of these guys would care more about winning games than someone making a childish meme about them.  

Better to exit early from the playoffs and be a liability in the clutch than take the risk of trying to win in the clutch and looking stupid (well, stupider than bricking your free throws already looks).

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

You'd hope some of these guys would care more about winning games than someone making a childish meme about them.  

Better to exit early from the playoffs and be a liability in the clutch than take the risk of trying to win in the clutch and looking stupid (well, stupider than bricking your free throws already looks).

I would also hope that but I don't know that is the case for all guys.  I also know a lot of guys -- especially younger players -- do take things hard from social media.  I was just reading about how players will search their names after games and read through comments, etc.  In my ideal world, Capela would just learn to shoot and have good form he can use from the line and in the game for shorter mid range shots, but I know that's wishful thinking...

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I would also hope that but I don't know that is the case for all guys.  I also know a lot of guys -- especially younger players -- do take things hard from social media.  I was just reading about how players will search their names after games and read through comments, etc.  In my ideal world, Capela would just learn to shoot and have good form he can use from the line and in the game for shorter mid range shots, but I know that's wishful thinking...

The issue is hardly unique to him.  Lots of big men value their egos over winning.  It is just a demonstrated fact given the low hanging fruit potential for improving their results.

Your ideal world would have Capela trying this because his best chance to learn to shoot and have repeatable form would be to try to get this down during his offseason.  This past offseason would have been ideal due to its length and the fact that he could have been doing this wayyyyyyyyyyy before active movement in his rehab process.

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

The issue is hardly unique to him.  Lots of big men value their egos over winning.  It is just a demonstrated fact given the low hanging fruit potential for improving their results.

Your ideal world would have Capela trying this because his best chance to learn to shoot and have repeatable form would be to try to get this down during his offseason.  This past offseason would have been ideal due to its length and the fact that he could have been doing this wayyyyyyyyyyy before active movement in his rehab process.

Yeah, I wish he already learned how to shoot free throws... the more I think about it the more annoying it is.  Like you said, dude could have been standing at the free throw line all summer/offseason.  Drawing fouls is also a huge part of a centers game.  It honestly makes me appreciate Collins more when you juxtapose the two.  Collins is constantly improving aspects of his game

[macdaddy]

Apologies if this was already posted.   This is not in response to anything but just to document an amazing bucket.   I tell you the national Trae hate is real.  If this had been any other star it would have been shared a billion times.