Uh oh...Ice vs The Baptist

[High5]

 

6 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

I think Trae was proving a point and I agree w/ him.  Besides Bogey and Gallo, these cats need him to score effectively.  JC is another KAT.  Great stats, but he doesn't effect winning.

He turned it over like 6 times in the first quarter. What point is that proving? That the Hawks can't win 4 vs. 6? 

 

Anyway, these stories usually get blown out of proportion. Hopefully this is another instance of that and the team gets back on track Saturday. 

[Peoriabird]

So can I give my take on this without being crucified? This entire situation is on Pierce. He let this type of play go on for 2 years and now he wants to coach it out of Trae? John is absolutely right for pointing out the flaws in this Trae centric offensive approach. Right now Trae is not good enough for this to work consistently.  Give John the Da-n ball!

[Peoriabird]

30 minutes ago, High5 said:

 

He turned it over like 6 times in the first quarter. What point is that proving? That the Hawks can't win 4 vs. 6? 

 

Anyway, these stories usually get blown out of proportion. Hopefully this is another instance of that and the team gets back on track Saturday. 

Hello High5. You sound like me now! What happened to you?

[bleachkit]

4 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

And now we see the problem of not extending Collins. Trae is an immature and mercurial guy who isn't a leader, but Collins can't create a shot. They really need each other.

Trae might be like Kyrie. Uber talented, but just better off in a number two role. Problem is we dont have a LeBron or KD to take that number one role.

[bleachkit]

7 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I think that if Trae becomes more of a cog in the offense while still getting his, the ceiling of this team is raised significantly. Outside of LBJ led teams, there have been no teams in the last decade that won a championship without thier most important player having an impact off the ball. The Spurs, Raptors, and Golden State all had systems based on offensive flow while also relying on thier stars.

Look at what Kawhi said about the Clippers after last season. They lacked BBIQ. They needed a floor general to run the offense. 

Trae is integral to this team's success. But his playstyle can determine whether he ends up like Harden or Curry.

Trae is not Curry at all. Curry is a master off the ball. Trae is a small Harden. Trae needs the ball, Trae does not play off the ball. Does not try to play off the ball. He's a Harden/Iverson type that needs the ball. 

[NBASupes]

25 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

I think Trae was proving a point and I agree w/ him.  Besides Bogey and Gallo, these cats need him to score effectively.  JC is another KAT.  Great stats, but he doesn't effect winning.

Regardless if he does or doesn't, JC is dead ass right on this issue. 

[HawkItus]

8 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

You prove your point by having your all time worst game? No, you prove youre a spoiled brat by doing that. Yes, if Trae plays like absolute shit, that decreases our chances of winning. Stunning insight there, Trae. Great players respond to challenges by rising above them and showing their greatness, not pouting.

Well if you read the article:

 

Quote

Young finished with just seven points — his first single-digit scoring total since a nine-point outing in a 25-point loss to Detroit on Nov. 22, 2019 — and he only had three assists. He clearly had chosen not to be aggressive, taking just three attempts from beyond the 3-point line (his fewest since an 11-minute stint on Oct. 29, 2019) and nine total field-goal attempts and giving up seven turnovers. Collins, meanwhile, finished with a team-high 23 points on a team-high 16 shot attempts.

Quote

It’s understandable why Collins would speak out on the importance of more ball movement because that’s how he thrives in this offense. Collins is not a play initiator and not someone the Hawks comfortably can rely on to take over games by himself. Instead, he gets his points from offensive rebounding and pick-and-rolls — whether he’s rolling, popping or slipping the screen, which Kevin Durant called him the best in the league at doing just last week.

We can find a guy to do what Collins does, which is play a role, but without Trae he is not as valuable.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

Trae is not Curry at all. Curry is a master off the ball. Trae is a small Harden. Trae needs the ball, Trae does not play off the ball. Does not try to play off the ball. He's a Harden/Iverson type that needs the ball. 

He's not as good as Harden and that's a problem. He doesn't consistently draw fouls using his strength. He baits a lot. When refs throw away the whistle, our freeflowing offense gets out of sorts. Honestly, I wish Rondo was playing and healthy. 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, HawkItus said:

Well if you read the article:

 

We can find a guy to do what Collins does, which is play a role, but without Trae he is not as valuable.

They both need each other at this stage of their careers.

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

He's not as good as Harden and that's a problem. He doesn't consistently draw fouls using his strength. He baits a lot. When refs throw away the whistle, our freeflowing offense gets out of sorts. Honestly, I wish Rondo was playing and healthy. 

To be fair Harden baits a lot too and Trae is a better passer.   But i get your point.

[JeffS17]

23 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

I think Trae was proving a point and I agree w/ him.  Besides Bogey and Gallo, these cats need him to score effectively.  JC is another KAT.  Great stats, but he doesn't effect winning.

No one is asking Trae to only take 3 3PA a game... they're asking him not to chuck 30 footers early in the shot clock and not to dribble out the shot clock for 10 seconds before moving into a set.  It ruins the flow of the offense and sucks the wind out of guys who are giving 100% on defense, hustling back to get into position, off-ball screening, etc only for Trae to throw up a 30 footer.  If he's hot by all means heat check but it's not something you do when you need some rhythm on offense.

As a lot of us pointed out Wednesday, it looked (and now seems to be partially confirmed) like Trae was just pouting.  He has to grow up if he wants to be an actual leader of the team.  I genuinely hope this is a 1 game lapse and he's not actually this thin skinned.  JC looks like our actual on-court leader.  He's constantly encouraging guys, talking, keeping morale up, etc.

One thing that has always bugged me about LP that this article calls out is his avoidance of accountability.  We can talk about player-leaders all day long but the coach is the actual intended leader of the team -- and when they coach is blaming losses on low effort or intensity -- instead of actually taking accountability, it's a bad sign.  You don't get to make excuses when you continually blow big leads and fail to see what is working on the court.  If this was last season, I would chalk it up to developing guys in different situations and give LP a pass, but the clearly stated goal is to win games and make the playoffs this year.

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Trae might be like Kyrie. Uber talented, but just better off in a number two role. Problem is we dont have a LeBron or KD to take that number one role.

I been saying this, in order for us to go where we need to go, we need Cam to be our best player. I like Hunter evolution to being our 2nd or 3rd best player since Cam isn't ready yet but mainly, Cam is the only one talented enough to actually do it. We need him to f***ing grow or we are f***ed. Trae is Trae. I personally been thought he peaked. He can get better, but so much of what he needs to do, he doesn't come close to doing it, much less consistently doing it. It's so frustrating. 

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

To be fair Harden baits a lot too and Trae is a better passer.   But i get your point.

He gets fouled a lot more than they call it. Trae does too but it's much more damaging when they shallow the whistle for Trae than James because James is a better scorer. Trae's floater has failed him so far this year and his metrics have taken a massive hit. His metrics are still being carried by his elite first two games of the year. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So can I give my take on this without being crucified? This entire situation is on Pierce. He let this type of play go on for 2 years and now he wants to coach it out of Trae? John is absolutely right for pointing out the flaws in this Trae centric offensive approach. Right now Trae is not good enough for this to work consistently.  Give John the Da-n ball!

You got a point but this is why @KB21 was ultimately against tanking. You let young players build bad habits. LP did a great job in avoiding this in year 1 but year 2 was a disgrace and LP is paying the price for it.

[HawkItus]

15 minutes ago, High5 said:

 

He turned it over like 6 times in the first quarter. What point is that proving? That the Hawks can't win 4 vs. 6? 

 

Anyway, these stories usually get blown out of proportion. Hopefully this is another instance of that and the team gets back on track Saturday. 

Admittedly, 

I was in transit and didn't see the first part of the game.  Steve's call seemed as though Trae was passing when he would normally shoot and getting turnovers.  If Trae is off ball, but we don't have set plays to get him open or initiators to feed off of, Wed. is what happens.  Folks aren't doubling JC and once they don't respect Trae because he isn't aggressive the whole house of cards falls,  The key to our hot start was great shooting from outside.  Not our inside play.  JC fed off the offense spreading folks out and feasted.

[JeffS17]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He gets fouled a lot more than they call it. Trae does too but it's much more damaging when they shallow the whistle for Trae than James because James is a better scorer. Trae's floater has failed him so far this year and his metrics have taken a massive hit. His metrics are still being carried by his elite first two games of the year. 

His floater has failed because instead of shooting it, he's thrusting his ass into the defender to try to draw fails.  The foul baiting is hurting his overall game because he's forcing himself into situations where he's considering 4 things and has 1 second to decide: go to the rim and layup, floater, find an open man, or bait a foul.

It's too much.  He will get foul calls regardless because he's our star player and he demands guys play him close because he's very quick and a good shooter, so he needs to stop trying to bait fouls and actually score -- he has a good floater when the paint is occupied and he's good at beating guys to the rim when its not.  I really think the egregious foul baiting is hurting other aspects of his game.

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I been saying this, in order for us to go where we need to go, we need Cam to be our best player. I like Hunter evolution to being our 2nd or 3rd best player since Cam isn't ready yet but mainly, Cam is the only one talented enough to actually do it. We need him to f***ing grow or we are f***ed. Trae is Trae. I personally been thought he peaked. He can get better, but so much of what he needs to do, he doesn't come close to doing it, much less consistently doing it. It's so frustrating. 

Cam becoming Tmac is a long shot. To be a superstar you have to be incredibly consistent. 

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You got a point but this is why @KB21 was ultimately against tanking. You let young players build bad habits. LP did a great job in avoiding this in year 1 but year 2 was a disgrace and LP is paying the price for it.

Been saying this for 2 years!! But great posters like @AHF just kept cheering them on touting Trae's efficiently etc.  Now I think people are finally seeing what I've been talking about for years and its about time!

[NBASupes]

Just now, bleachkit said:

Cam becoming Tmac is a long shot. To be a superstar you have to be incredibly consistent. 

He doesn't need to be T-Mac or any other player who has played this game. He needs to be the best version of himself. He has a lot of tremendous tools and talent but ultimately, decision making with the ball, consistency with your shot, and being able to watch the film and put it into game action is critical for his development. I'll still believe he can be an amazing Basketball player. He's not that far, he's just not close right now. That said, it's within reach. He has to want it as much as others want it for him. His defense is so much further than his offense right now and it's clear why. You can be natural at defense, on offense, you gotta be precise. 

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Cam becoming Tmac is a long shot. To be a superstar you have to be incredibly consistent. 

McGrady wasn't a star in his first 2-3 years either.  He broke out at some point in his 3rd or 4th year which is still possible for Cam.  If he can settle in to his shot and return to early 2020 shooting %s he's halfway there.  He is clearly unpolished but that always takes time.  All star players start out rough around the edges.