Uh oh...Ice vs The Baptist

[kg01]

Blame goes all around, not just the coach.

Shiiii, some of yall fans get blame too.  You ain't immune.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I wasn't referring to the rebuild but rather the devopment of bad habits. I've mentioned this a million times over the years

When did I ever say you can't develop bad habits?  Pretty sure I was arguing for adding a vet last season for this very reason.

[gurpilo]

I don't know if I am wrong or perhaps I am overeacting, I know all of you are going to come mad at me but I think we would be better if we trade Trae Young for a true star PG. His trade value is probably at his peak and honestly speaking I don't think we can build a contender around him. Is a personality concern, he is always going to chose him shining over the team, if you are Lebron and you are really dominant that might work but he is always going to be a weak undersized PG, if he choses to go on his own against the whole team looking for the hero basket even if doubleteamed he is not going to be effective enough to consistently win games, even Lebron cannot do that and I don't see him leaving that 'me first' attittude on the court. His personality somehow reminds me Russell Westbrook.

Edited January 8, 2021 by gurpilo

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

I don't know if I am wrong or perhaps I am overeacting, I know all of you are going to come mad at me but I think we would be better if we trade Trae Young for a true star PG.

I think you are wrong. I think you are overreacting. I also think it's a moot point because this is never going to happen. I'm not mad at you. It's just not something worth discussing because it's not realistic. The only way the Hawks trade Trae is if HE demands a trade.  To the Hawks FO and Owner, Trae is their superstar and the piece they are building around. For better or worse, he's the guy for the next 5 or 6 years. As Hawks fans, we need to all hope that he continues to evolve his game and get better, because he's not going anywhere. 

[Atlantaholic]

Not completely surprised to read all this garbage after that collosal embarasment of an effort last game. Clearly there was something going on behind the scenes. Still disapointing to see all this junk come out. Where is the leadership on this team???

[Atlantaholic]

4 hours ago, HawkItus said:

Admittedly, 

I was in transit and didn't see the first part of the game.  Steve's call seemed as though Trae was passing when he would normally shoot and getting turnovers.  If Trae is off ball, but we don't have set plays to get him open or initiators to feed off of, Wed. is what happens.  Folks aren't doubling JC and once they don't respect Trae because he isn't aggressive the whole house of cards falls,  The key to our hot start was great shooting from outside.  Not our inside play.  JC fed off the offense spreading folks out and feasted.

Trae was got several open looks from our motion offense several times, especially once where he was wiiiide open in the corner for a three and simply didn't shoot. He was pulling some "ah ha" on the coach and it was petty and disheartening. 

[REHawksFan]

15 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

He was pulling some "ah ha" on the coach and it was petty and disheartening. 

For me, this goes a little too far. I would just caution against projecting intent. None of us know what Trae was trying to accomplish if indeed he was purposefully playing that way.   

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, REHawksFan said:

For me, this goes a little too far. I would just caution against projecting intent. None of us know what Trae was trying to accomplish if indeed he was purposefully playing that way.   

Fair enough, but the fact is those were the optics at the very least. I hope you're right though.

[JeffS17]

18 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Trae was got several open looks from our motion offense several times, especially once where he was wiiiide open in the corner for a three and simply didn't shoot. He was pulling some "ah ha" on the coach and it was petty and disheartening. 

Yep, a lot of us called it out during the game and this article pretty much confirms his actions were malicious compliance.  I hope to see this squashed by Saturday -- I don't know if I can handle another loss to McRib and Lamelo.

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Fair enough, but the fact is those were the optics at the very least. I hope you're right though.

I agree that the optics aren't / weren't good. I just hold out hope that there is some other explanation other than that. 

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, REHawksFan said:

I agree that the optics aren't / weren't good. I just hold out hope that there is some other explanation other than that. 

[Wurider05]

Quote

Capela, the 26-year-old who was acquired from Houston at last season’s trade deadline, had seen a similar act unfold before during the Dwight Howard-James Harden era with the Houston Rockets. Sources say Capela’s message focused on that cautionary tale, how Howard’s demands for the ball along with Harden’s reluctance to give it up more freely widened the divide between them and led to collective failure.

They better listen to Clint!!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

6 hours ago, Jody23 said:

I read that article and Chris Kirschner is really good at his job.  I'll say this...the Hawks started out 4-1 and you could argue they should have been 5-0 and the offense was hummin'.  That happened with Trae Young being the best player on this team and giving up the ball more than I've seen him do it since he's been here.  

But you know when Trae doesn't start to give up the ball?

When his teammates start throwing up bricks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On the flip side . . . this is what happens when a guy like John Collins, who should've received max or close to max money, feels that he needs to put up numbers to justify a big payday next summer.  Those first 2 - 3 games ( when we were winning ), he was barely touching the ball, and Trae was dominating ( and excelling in the offense ).

Collins is: 20 ppg - 8 rebs - 55% FG - 37% 3FG during this 5 game stretch in which we've gone 1 - 4.  He's playing great . . but we're losing.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

So can I give my take on this without being crucified? This entire situation is on Pierce. He let this type of play go on for 2 years and now he wants to coach it out of Trae? John is absolutely right for pointing out the flaws in this Trae centric offensive approach. Right now Trae is not good enough for this to work consistently.  Give John the Da-n ball!

But the coach doesn't call plays for John.

This team doesn't win unless Trae balls out.  That's been proven time and again.

If they think they don't need Trae to be Trae Iverson, they should give Trae the week off.   Run the offense with Rondo starting, and Goodwin backing him up.

Let's see how the team does then.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

No one is asking Trae to only take 3 3PA a game... they're asking him not to chuck 30 footers early in the shot clock and not to dribble out the shot clock for 10 seconds before moving into a set.  It ruins the flow of the offense and sucks the wind out of guys who are giving 100% on defense, hustling back to get into position, off-ball screening, etc only for Trae to throw up a 30 footer.  If he's hot by all means heat check but it's not something you do when you need some rhythm on offense.

As a lot of us pointed out Wednesday, it looked (and now seems to be partially confirmed) like Trae was just pouting.  He has to grow up if he wants to be an actual leader of the team.  I genuinely hope this is a 1 game lapse and he's not actually this thin skinned.  JC looks like our actual on-court leader.  He's constantly encouraging guys, talking, keeping morale up, etc.

One thing that has always bugged me about LP that this article calls out is his avoidance of accountability.  We can talk about player-leaders all day long but the coach is the actual intended leader of the team -- and when they coach is blaming losses on low effort or intensity -- instead of actually taking accountability, it's a bad sign.  You don't get to make excuses when you continually blow big leads and fail to see what is working on the court.  If this was last season, I would chalk it up to developing guys in different situations and give LP a pass, but the clearly stated goal is to win games and make the playoffs this year.

He doesn't shoot as bad on 30 footers, as people think.  Go look up the numbers.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

So basically he threw a game when we're trying to make the Playoffs? And we're supposed to give him a chance to grow? Thats tough..

LMAO . . . it was Game #8.   Let's not act like this is game #68 with 4 games to go, and we're tied for the 10th playoff spot.

Yes, every game counts, but let's calm down.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

I don't mean to imply that we don't have a team full of guys that know how to pass.  The issue is having someone who is good enough to run the offense while Trae is moving AND having that guy on the floor with him at the same time.  All of those guys (Kev, Bogdan, Danillo) are ok I suppose, but none of them are setting up the offense with a runner like Billups to Rip or Mark Jackson to Reggile Miller - and they're all coming off the bench.  Rondo would be a legit option here if he were a few years younger and several inches taller.  I'm not a fan of smallball.  TBH, this may be more reasoning to start Bogi, but again...we're back to coaching.

I'd also add that they're not going to just let Trae run wild and find open looks.  As long as there is no one else on this team that is reliable in the clutch, they will smother him.  It's the same position we find ourselves in now, except initiated in reverse.  There has to be someone, a solid #2 guy, who can consistently hit that shot and alleviate the pressure on our star.  Historically, we have had that guy, but had the opposite problem in not having a legit #1 option like Trae.  Go figure...lol

Excellent post.

[JeffS17]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

He doesn't shoot as bad on 30 footers, as people think.  Go look up the numbers.

It's not about the spreadsheet math but more about the fact you have guys that aren't touching the rock after busting it on defense every possession and you start to lose rhythm/flow on offense, not to mention guys will inevitably get a little salty if you brick too many of those.  Ultimately, this is a coaching issue though.  The coach needs to set the expectations for Trae and the team on whether or not he is launching from 30 feet.  He should not have a perpetual green light on those.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

It's not about the spreadsheet math but more about the fact you have guys that aren't touching the rock after busting it on defense every possession and you start to lose rhythm/flow on offense, not to mention guys will inevitably get a little salty if you brick too many of those.  Ultimately, this is a coaching issue though.  The coach needs to set the expectations for Trae and the team on whether or not he is launching from 30 feet.  He should not have a perpetual green light on those.

 

Trae needs the offensive green light on everything, until these guys prove that they can consistently score the basketball without much input from him.

The offense isn't designed to get Collins the touches he wants. That's why most of this is on the coach to change the offense.

Pick and Roll is our bread and butter, but we have to be able to run post sets to get Collins the ball in the midrange.

Talking about the offense still doesn't address the defense.  LP has to fix his rotations and stop going small.  Hunter is great, but at the 3.  Stop putting him at the 4, where he has an offensive and defensive disadvantage.