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Uh oh...Ice vs The Baptist


HawkItus

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24 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Trae needs the offensive green light on everything, until these guys prove that they can consistently score the basketball without much input from him.

The offense isn't designed to get Collins the touches he wants. That's why most of this is on the coach to change the offense.

Pick and Roll is our bread and butter, but we have to be able to run post sets to get Collins the ball in the midrange.

Talking about the offense still doesn't address the defense.  LP has to fix his rotations and stop going small.  Hunter is great, but at the 3.  Stop putting him at the 4, where he has an offensive and defensive disadvantage. 

This is circular logic.  Trae is the point guard, of course no one is getting buckets without input from him lol... and the offense is designed heliocentrically around Trae, which is what some ppl are challenging.  Your offense should be able to flow without large hiccups when your starting PG is on the bench --  or starting any position is on the bench -- if you have an actual offensive system, which I would challenge we don't.

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6 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I asked in the game thread why Trae was just passing the ball and standing at the top of the key in the 1st half, not moving...now we know why.

@TheNorthCydeRises called it.

 

This isn't anything new. Trae never moves without the ball. That's a major flaw in his game which Kobe pointed out on one of his Detail episode.

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5 hours ago, hawkzlova123 said:

Imo Collins has a huge burden to prove he's a max player. Since we have so many offensive options, Collins is pressured to perform. And anything that will become a barrier to him and production, he wants to knock it down. 

 

Hey look! I found a good post in this thread!

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1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

On the flip side . . . this is what happens when a guy like John Collins, who should've received max or close to max money, feels that he needs to put up numbers to justify a big payday next summer.  Those first 2 - 3 games ( when we were winning ), he was barely touching the ball, and Trae was dominating ( and excelling in the offense ).

Collins is: 20 ppg - 8 rebs - 55% FG - 37% 3FG during this 5 game stretch in which we've gone 1 - 4.  He's playing great . . but we're losing.

 

Hmm, there is no way in hell Collins deserves the max bro. I like John but he is not close to a max money player. Julius Randle and Sabonis making under 19 million a year. 

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11 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Hmm, there is no way in hell Collins deserves the max bro. I like John but he is not close to a max money player. Julius Randle and Sabonis making under 19 million a year. 

We can't just let John walk. You either trade him and pay him market value.

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36 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

This is circular logic.  Trae is the point guard, of course no one is getting buckets without input from him lol... and the offense is designed heliocentrically around Trae, which is what some ppl are challenging.  Your offense should be able to flow without large hiccups when your starting PG is on the bench --  or starting any position is on the bench -- if you have an actual offensive system, which I would challenge we don't.

Wait...I'm trying to get my head around this. 

What team...what offense...doesn't suffer when its centerpiece is taken out?  Entire teams are built around the best offensive weapon.  Not only is Trae is our best scorer, but he is also a traditional point guard that runs the offense...in every way you can possibly think of.  Statistically, he is elite in both regards.  It wouldn't matter what offense we run, the team will go as he goes.

I agree that the entire team can benefit from ball movement, but to sit here and act like the struggle is because he doesn't move without the ball? That's not the problem. The argument can be made that we won't dominate or contend if he doesn't improve in that area, but the losses are not because "Trae pounds the ball, launches a bunch of 30 footers, and doesn't move." It's just inaccurate.

Even without the Motion OffenseTM, guys are getting a ridiculous amount of wide open looks.  They're not hitting these shots when it counts (some guys are not hitting at all).  A little razzle-dazzle and some *whistle*whistle*Sweeeeeet Georgia Brown!!!* swinging it around the horn isn't going to change that.  The same sputtering offense is going to rear it's head when the shots don't fall. 

Either way, even if it were the problem...it isn't on Trae.  This is on the coach to implement the offense and the players to ALL buy into it and execute it.

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14 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Hmm, there is no way in hell Collins deserves the max bro. I like John but he is not close to a max money player. Julius Randle and Sabonis making under 19 million a year. 

Randle's percentages are worse and he didn't average 7 assists a game when he got his contract. Today's version probably gets more on the open market. Sabonis emerged after he got paid. He gets more on the open market for today's production.

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5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

We can't just let John walk. You either trade him and pay him market value.

Agreed on that. 

On a side note...and just a mostly baseless observation because I don't want to get shot up by the Collins Mafia lol

With the supposed trade rumors last season or so, him being so vocal about his contract, knowing these kind of things are a distraction...and now this conflict "leaks" to the press at the worst time...  I wonder if he's angling for a trade.  It's almost the perfect way to draw attention for it without looking like a bad guy.

If I were a betting man, I'd put two dollars on it.  Eh...maybe a dollar and fifty cents...lol

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9 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Agreed on that. 

On a side note...and just a mostly baseless observation because I don't want to get shot up by the Collins Mafia lol

With the supposed trade rumors last season or so, him being so vocal about his contract, knowing these kind of things are a distraction...and now this conflict "leaks" to the press at the worst time...  I wonder if he's angling for a trade.  It's almost the perfect way to draw attention for it without looking like a bad guy.

If I were a betting man, I'd put two dollars on it.  Eh...maybe a dollar and fifty cents...lol

Why would he be forcing a trade? He's getting paid no matter what. When you get traded you don't decide where you go.

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59 minutes ago, QuantumHawkz said:

This isn't anything new. Trae never moves without the ball. That's a major flaw in his game which Kobe pointed out on one of his Detail episode.

Yes.  This.  I do NOT want to see him be the next Russell Westbrook who just stands there waiting for the ball back.

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1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

He doesn't shoot as bad on 30 footers, as people think.  Go look up the numbers.

I don't mind them in general and It's not his percentage on the long shots that concern me...it's the time and circumstances in games of when he launches them. Example: Hawks are down, theyr'e battling getting back in the game, they play great defense on one end...Trae comes down launches with no rebounders in place.

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Trae makes his teammates better. What's all this bullshit about him dribbling the clock down and him making a play at the last second?  He's one of the most efficient offensive guards in the history of the sport according to the analytics. 

Trae does need to dial back the early shot clock bombs, I do agree with that assessment. But he doesn't hog the ball at all. He's always looking for his teammates and is more excited when they make a play than himself.  The offense goes through him and that's the way it should be.

Sure we can fit some more Collins post up plays in the mix but, to be honest, he's not really great with the ball down in the block. Limited moveset.  He's one of the best pick and roll PFs in the NBA though and that requires him to need some help to facilitate his offense.  Trae is one of the best in the league at this.  They just need to talk it out and work out the differences.

Trae did handle the criticism poorly, I'm not disputing that one bit, but one thing is true, without him being himself, this team is trash. With Trae playing at his highest level, we are a top 3 Eastern conference team. 

LP is not helping the situation with poor rotations and zero compromise play distribution to help make both players happy.  It's quite easy to bump up Collins attempts within the confines of a spread offense.  Just have to a coach that knows what the f*** they are doing...

Edited by gHost83
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Collins does not need more touches. He is getting 16 FGA per 36. That is exactly what he got last year. If he is unhappy with his minutes, he should try not fouling so much in the 1st half and 3rd quarter. Simple shit. Don't play like a rookie with the boneheaded fouls and you get to stay in the game.

Gallinari has only played one full game and just 3 minutes of a 2nd. Bogdan is in a horrible shooting slump. His FG% is .389 and he has not been much better than Cam Reddish so far this season. Even with all that, the Hawks still have the 5th best offensive rating this season.

In a nutshell, Trae, Collins, Hunter, Huerter, and Capella have carried the Hawks up till now. The bench and the 50 plus million in free agent signings everyone was so hyped about has offered very little in return so far this season.

As far as I am concerned, Collins needs to stfu and play ball. Maybe he should do what he said he said he was going to work on this off season. You know, passing the ball.

Edited by Buzzard
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1 hour ago, aali34 said:

Randle's percentages are worse and he didn't average 7 assists a game when he got his contract. Today's version probably gets more on the open market. Sabonis emerged after he got paid. He gets more on the open market for today's production.

Julius Randle and Sabonis PER, Win shares and Per 36 mins stats were all comprable to John Collins stats when they signed their contracts, and they weren't bottom tier defenders at their positions. Collins shouldn't get 10 million a year more than those guys and paying him the max is a mistake. 

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25 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Collins does not need more touches. He is getting 16 FGA per 36.

The focus shouldn't be on more touches (how much of those 16FGA are from ORebs?) for Collins since I don't think that what he's talking about, I think it's about how he's incorporated in the offense, being more involved particularly when they are struggling from 3, get the ball to him down low.   But more importantly he talks about these 3 things that seems to be getting overlooked and as if he's making it all about touches:

  • Collins talked about the need to get into offensive sets more quickly 
  • limit all those early shot-clock attempt
  • a desire for more ball involvement and flow on offense.

I find no fault in these 3 points above.

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1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Julius Randle and Sabonis PER, Win shares and Per 36 mins stats were all comprable to John Collins stats when they signed their contracts, and they weren't bottom tier defenders at their positions. Collins shouldn't get 10 million a year more than those guys and paying him the max is a mistake. 

- I don't know if Win shares is a fair metric to use for a tanking team.

- They did put up similar numbers, but John did so on better efficiency.

- I don't think JC has been playing bad defense this year either, the early fouls are an issue though.

PER is a fair point. 

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8 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

The focus shouldn't be on more touches (how much of those 16FGA are from ORebs?) for Collins since I don't think that what he's talking about, I think it's about how he's incorporated in the offense, being more involved particularly when they are struggling from 3, get the ball to him down low.   But more importantly he talks about these 3 things that seems to be getting overlooked and as if he's making it all about touches:

  • Collins talked about the need to get into offensive sets more quickly 
  • limit all those early shot-clock attempt
  • a desire for more ball involvement and flow on offense.

I find no fault in these 3 points above.

Collins is a big who lacks great movement, ball handling skills, and passing skills. Its obvious he would prefer a much slower deliberate offense. That does not make it right for the rest of the team. The Center has never been a focus of getting this offense set. Neither has the power forward. Collins is really not good enough to do that in my opinion. The man averages 1.8 assist a game and now he thinks the offense should focus and be run through him at times. That is not a Trae issue. That is a Pierce and Collins issue.

In a interview last season Collins was quoted as saying the Hawks have no plays called for him. If he wants more plays when he has none, he needs to get with his coach.

Edited by Buzzard
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1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Why would he be forcing a trade? He's getting paid no matter what. When you get traded you don't decide where you go.

He may not like losing.  Maybe he doesn't like it here?  Maybe he wants a potential suitor, perhaps a destination he favors, to know these things.  If's and but's, sure...  Then again...I prefaced all of that with "mostly baseless" so, this isn't a hill that I'm willing to die on.

I will say this, for all the talk about Trae and his immaturity, JC opening his mouth about his contract was a d*ck move.  Dude take the high road and say, "I don't want to talk money.  We'll figure that out.  Right now, I'm just focused on the season and getting my team to the playoffs."  If you're worth it, let your game do the talking and let your agent do the work so that you don't become a distraction - the literal way this has

1 hour ago, gHost83 said:

Trae makes his teammates better. What's all this bullshit about him dribbling the clock down and him making a play at the last second?  He's one of the most efficient offensive guards in the history of the sport according to the analytics. 

I'm trying to figure it out too.  There are in this thread comparisons to Iverson and Kyrie, along with support for JC's criticism of how Trae handles the offense, and plenty of knocks against his off the ball game while not bringing into question personnel, coaching, and shooting inefficiencies. For the record, I'm as far on the opposite side of that criticism as a Squawker can be.

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3 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Collins is a big who lacks great movement, ball handling skills, and passing skills. Its obvious he would prefer a much slower deliberate offense. That does not make it right for the rest of the team. The Center has never been a focus of getting this offense set. Neither has the power forward. Collins is really not good enough to do that in my opinion. The man averages 1.8 assist a game and now he thinks the offense should focus and be run through him at times. That is not a Trae issue. That is a Pierce and Collins issue.

In a interview last season Collins was quoted as saying the Hawks have no plays called for him. If he wants more plays when he has none, he needs to get with his coach.

...and that doesn't sound like a man with motive to stir up potential suitors.

👀🤔

lol...just stirring the pot ya'll.

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