Official Game Thread: Hawks at Magic

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

Really?  You too?  I expect that nonsense from Peo but I thought you were better than that.  

So maybe it isn't just me that interprets your rants in that manner.  Although you have stated that Trae playing the right way should not be a priority rather the number of shots taken regardless of the defense.

[bleachkit]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Really?  You too?  I expect that nonsense from Peo but I thought you were better than that.  

I am being glib of course. But I do prefer an offense that is based around getting the best shot, and ball movement, as opposed to one on one scoring. But on the other hand we do need Trae to score obviously, and we are more likely to win when he does. All true. What I don't agree with though, is the notion, that when we lose its because Trae was trying to be a facilitator to "play the right way." There's a fine line, between when to score and when to pass, it's based on match up, game situation, etc. It's not an either/or.

[kg01]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

TJ McConnell with the rare steals triple double. Why didnt we sign him again? 

Because he's not that good.

Any more questions?

[REHawksFan]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

So maybe it isn't just me that interprets your rants in that manner.  Although you have stated that Trae playing the right way should not be a priority rather the number of shots taken regardless of the defense.

No. Once again, you are wrong.  I've stated numerous times that Trae needs to be a scorer FIRST and then be a facilitator for the hawks to win.  I've never once said he needs to take 40 shots or never pass the ball. You are just making crap up to fit your own POV. 

Until they play consistent defense OR develop another consistent offensive threat (Hunter imo), the reality for this team is they need Trae to be the premiere scorer.  And the data backs that up even though you conveniently just ignore it since it doesn't fit your narrative.  

As for the "playing the right way" comments I've made, I've been very clear that that refers to those you you that think trae should just be a facilitator and not a scorer.  The games and data just doesn't support that no matter how much you want it to.  

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Because he's not that good.

Any more questions?

He's a rock solid back up PG. Check his assists number. Based on minutes they are some of the highest in the NBA. He's also a very pesky defender, and although not a great scorer, he's an efficient one and can get them when need be. He's also making half what Rondo is making. What's not to like?

[REHawksFan]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I am being glib of course. But I do prefer an offense that is based around getting the best shot, and ball movement, as opposed to one on one scoring. But on the other hand we do need Trae to score obviously, and we are more likely to win when he does. All true. What I don't agree with though, is the notion, that when we lose its because Trae was trying to be a facilitator to "play the right way." There's a fine line, between when to score and when to pass, it's based on match up, game situation, etc. It's not an either/or.

This I agree with completely.  It's a balancing act that Trae has to learn / understand.  When to be a scorer and when to facilitate.  I personally think he's had his best overall games and put the team in the best position to win when he establishes himself as a scorer first and then facilitates off of that.  Of course, situations can dictate a different course (like when he's being doubled from the jump).  But in general, Trae needs to establish himself each game for the hawks to have most success.  

I think part of what Trae needs to learn is how to determine when to facilitate and when to score.  That's what his dad was referring to in that Tweet.  He made the right choice late in that game.  I've got no problem with that choice to facilitate to Snell despite how hard Peo tries to insinuate otherwise.  

 

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

As for the "playing the right way" comments I've made, I've been very clear that that refers to those of you that think trae should just be a facilitator and not a scorer.  The games and data just doesn't support that no matter how much you want it to.  

You can't find one line from anyone stating that Trae Young should be "Just a Facilitator"  Not one.

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

He's a rock solid back up PG. Check his assists number. Based on minutes they are some of the highest in the NBA. He's also a very pesky defender, and although not a great scorer, he's an efficient one and can get them when need be. He's also making half what Rondo is making. What's not to like?

Solid.  Not someone I'd consider a 'miss' or anything.  Replaceable.

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

You can't find one line from anyone stating that Trae Young should be "Just a Facilitator"  Not one.

And you can't find one line where I've said Trae should not be a facilitator and should only shoot.  Not one.  Yet you continually mischaracterize my comments and statements in an attempt to make me look like I'm saying he should stand around and shoot all game.  It's tiresome nonsense.  

[bleachkit]

Just now, kg01 said:

Solid.  Not someone I'd consider a 'miss' or anything.  Replaceable.

At 3.5 million a year, he's one the biggest bargains in all the NBA (excluding rookie contracts). 

[Peoriabird]

20 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

And you can't find one line where I've said Trae should not be a facilitator and should only shoot.  Not one.  Yet you continually mischaracterize my comments and statements in an attempt to make me look like I'm saying he should stand around and shoot all game.  It's tiresome nonsense.  

Who said this?

Glad you finally came around to the reality that Trae plays better when he's taking long 3's and looking to score first and then be a facilitator.  The whole "make the right play" thing doesn't work with Trae.

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Who said this?

Glad you finally came around to the reality that Trae plays better when he's taking long 3's and looking to score first and then be a facilitator.  The whole "make the right play" thing doesn't work with Trae.

I'm really not sure what else I can say to help you understand.  My statements have been the exact same in every post.  He needs to be a scorer first and then facilitate. 

Why are you ignoring half of what I say?  

 

I'm legitimately not sure what your issue is and why you continually mischaracterize the things I have been very consistent about.  

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I'm really not sure what else I can say to help you understand.  My statements have been the exact same in every post.  He needs to be a scorer first and then facilitate. 

Why are you ignoring half of what I say?  

 

I'm legitimately not sure what your issue is and why you continually mischaracterize the things I have been very consistent about.  

You missed the key phrase which is"This make the right play thing doesn't work with Trae"  What say ye?

[HawkItus]

Pope even enjoyed that comeback!

 

[kg01]

51 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

At 3.5 million a year, he's one the biggest bargains in all the NBA (excluding rookie contracts). 

All that tells me is the whole league agrees with me that he's not that good.  Even backup pg's get paid nowadays.  The fact that he couldn't is telling.

[REHawksFan]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

You missed the key phrase which is"This play the right way thing doesn't work with Trae"  What say ye?

I already explained myself in that thread and again in this one.  But what the hell, here goes again. 

When I say "playing the right way," I'm talking about this idea that LP used to talk about all the time and several, including you, on here have alluded to.  That is, pass the ball around until it finds an open man, making the extra pass to get the best shot.  The problem I have had with that system is - with few notable exceptions - this team didn't have the supporting cast around Trae to actually MAKE the open shots consistently.  How many times have we all groaned when Cam or Gallo or even Kevin missed a wide open shot throughout the game?  But hey, Trae made the "right pass" and his teammates blew it.  

With Trae, he needs to score for the Hawks to win.  The data suggests he needs to score at least 25-26 points for them to win.  I hope we can agree on that, since it's factual information and not my opinion. My point in saying that "playing the right way" doesn't really work for Trae is that generally when he plays games with a focus on facilitating, he does so in lieu of looking for his own shot.  Against the Pacers he played the entire game and didn't take a single 3.  But hey, he had 14 asts so he was really facilitating.  And the Hawks lost by 12 pts.  

What I have noticed with Trae is that he's almost always going to find his teammates throughout the game.  He's only had two games all year with less than 5 ast and only 6 games with less than 7.  He's going to facilitate. But he seems to play better overall when he establishes himself as a scorer FIRST and then lets the rest of his game flow through that.  "Playing the right way" runs counter to that because it means that early in the game and throughout the entire game he should always be looking to make the next pass and facilitate for his teammates.  But his teammates don't consistently come through.  And not only that, defenses KNOW his teammates don't come through consistently so Cam / Solo / etc... will ALWAYS be open for Trae to pass to.  So when he's more focused on looking for his teammates, he's foregoing his own shot to the detriment of the team.  

I'm not now - and have never - said he shouldn't rack up assists or that he shouldn't facilitate or make the right pass. What I am saying is that usually when he's focused on that early on, he has a harder time getting into his own offense later.  

Bottom line for me, Trae seems to play better overall (that's both scoring and facilitating) when he's looking to score first and then letting the passing flow out of that mindset.  And it makes sense too because as he establishes himself scoring, it will open up more spacing for his teammates and make their offense easier.  And not JUST 3pters.  I want him focusing on the floater and attacking.  Then once he's drawing the defenders, pass out of it.  It also gets him in an early rhythm that a lot of times is carried throughout the game.  

I really hope this makes sense.  I'm tired of arguing with you about this, but this is my opinion.  And it's one that's backed up by a good bit of data.  I'd appreciate if you want to discuss it, that you at least characterize what I say accurately going forward.  

 

[Peoriabird]

20 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I already explained myself in that thread and again in this one.  But what the hell, here goes again. 

When I say "playing the right way," I'm talking about this idea that LP used to talk about all the time and several, including you, on here have alluded to.  That is, pass the ball around until it finds an open man, making the extra pass to get the best shot.  The problem I have had with that system is - with few notable exceptions - this team didn't have the supporting cast around Trae to actually MAKE the open shots consistently.  How many times have we all groaned when Cam or Gallo or even Kevin missed a wide open shot throughout the game?  But hey, Trae made the "right pass" and his teammates blew it.  

With Trae, he needs to score for the Hawks to win.  The data suggests he needs to score at least 25-26 points for them to win.  I hope we can agree on that, since it's factual information and not my opinion. My point in saying that "playing the right way" doesn't really work for Trae is that generally when he plays games with a focus on facilitating, he does so in lieu of looking for his own shot.  Against the Pacers he played the entire game and didn't take a single 3.  But hey, he had 14 asts so he was really facilitating.  And the Hawks lost by 12 pts.  

What I have noticed with Trae is that he's almost always going to find his teammates throughout the game.  He's only had two games all year with less than 5 ast and only 6 games with less than 7.  He's going to facilitate. But he seems to play better overall when he establishes himself as a scorer FIRST and then lets the rest of his game flow through that.  "Playing the right way" runs counter to that because it means that early in the game and throughout the entire game he should always be looking to make the next pass and facilitate for his teammates.  But his teammates don't consistently come through.  And not only that, defenses KNOW his teammates don't come through consistently so Cam / Solo / etc... will ALWAYS be open for Trae to pass to.  So when he's more focused on looking for his teammates, he's foregoing his own shot to the detriment of the team.  

I'm not now - and have never - said he shouldn't rack up assists or that he shouldn't facilitate or make the right pass. What I am saying is that usually when he's focused on that early on, he has a harder time getting into his own offense later.  

Bottom line for me, Trae seems to play better overall (that's both scoring and facilitating) when he's looking to score first and then letting the passing flow out of that mindset.  And it makes sense too because as he establishes himself scoring, it will open up more spacing for his teammates and make their offense easier.  And not JUST 3pters.  I want him focusing on the floater and attacking.  Then once he's drawing the defenders, pass out of it.  It also gets him in an early rhythm that a lot of times is carried throughout the game.  

I really hope this makes sense.  I'm tired of arguing with you about this, but this is my opinion.  And it's one that's backed up by a good bit of data.  I'd appreciate if you want to discuss it, that you at least characterize what I say accurately going forward.  

 

Makes sense but I think Nate is teaching him differently and even his father alluded to the notion of trusting your teammates as a sign of growth in his son's game.  He applauded his son for making that pass to Snell out of trust instead of taking the shot himself.  His father and Nate see that as winning basketball which is not consistent with what you've been saying.  I agree with Nate and his Father by the way.

[REHawksFan]

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Makes sense but I think Nate is teaching him differently and even his father alluded to the notion of trusting your teammates as a sign of growth in his son's game.  He applauded his son for making that pass to Snell out of trust instead of taking the shot himself.  His father and Nate see that as winning basketball which is not consistent with what you've been saying.  I agree with Nate and his Father by the way.

Except it IS consistent with what I've been saying. This is where you seem to be employing selective reading or comprehension skills.  I've said over and over today that I applaud that pass.  No issue with it whatsoever.  It fits EXACTLY with what I've been saying.  Trae established his scoring early in the game and then let the facilitating flow out of that.  That's EXACTLY what he needs to do.  

His growth is in understanding at what points he needs to be the superstar and at what point he needs to trust his teammates.  That's where he's still learning.  But the way the game played out yesterday was exactly the way @TheNorthCydeRises and I and others have been saying Trae needs to play. 

I'm not sure why you keep thinking I don't want him passing.  How much larger and bolder and using colorful fonts do I need to do to get you to actually read the post and comprehend it?????   

To your point about Nate, I've also said IF they can develop into a consistent defensive team then that will also take the burden off of Trae and make it less necessary for him to be be that scorer that he needs to be now.  

[terrell]

11 hours ago, KB21 said:

 

Snelluva job by the Hawks!

[terrell]

14 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I’m counting down the days till Dre is back  like I’m in jail.  We gonna pop off.

Update tomorrow (supposedly) if he'll need another injection or not..

Edited March 4, 2021 by terrell