Official Game Thread: Hawks at Magic

[AHF]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Hey, when I think dudes that single-handedly shift the fortunes of franchises, I think TJ freaking McConnell.  Who's next?  Caleb Martin?

This site has a loooooong history of anointing middling players for no other reason than they happen to play for some other team and people try to go out of their way to appear they're not homers.  It's comical.  Its why guys like Bol Bol continue to have a following here despite 'average as cold grits' actual play.

The reason he is discussed is that our backup PG position is a high impact, limited minutes position that we have struggled badly to fill over the last few years and McConnell has been available twice and ultimately signed low $$ contracts elsewhere.  Look at the differential when Trae is on and off the floor.  Part of that is driven by Trae's dramatic impact on offense but part of that is also driven by having to play guys like Brandon Goodwin who aren't particularly good passers or shooters (.438% TS% this season).  

McConnell is an obvious fit for that need with his .540% - .555% TS% the last 3 seasons to go with his 9.6 ap36 number the last two years (at a nearly 4:1 a/to ratio).  He isn't a world beater but no one is claiming that he is.  Just that he would be a massive upgrade when Trae goes to the bench over what we have gotten from Goodwin, Rondo, Turner, etc.  And he has been super available and just not pursued with sufficient incentive to get it done.

He has posted a roughly 16.3 PER and .121 WS/48 number the last two years.  Those would have ranked second among guards last season (16.5 and .121 compared to 12.2 / .043 for Teague, 11.6 / .013 for Goodwin) and second among guards this season (16.0 and .121 compared to 9.7 / .025 for Rondo, 8.1 / .006 for Goodwin).  While I only list the numbers for our other backup PGs, the term "guard" also covers Cam, Huerter, Bogi, Bembry, Crabbe, Turner, etc. who we have had play the 1 or 2 spot.

I hope it is obvious why that kind of step up in those minutes could be impactful even if McConnell isn't some amazing player.

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The reason he didn't agree with Trae's father is that he truly feels like should take the all of the shots unless he is in trouble and not trust his teammates. He wants him to be an Iverson type point guard.  He has said it in many post and you know this but you keep covering for him why?

Nope.  Again you are misrepresenting his position.  He has said it many posts and yet  you keep putting words in his mouth that he has contradicted over and over.  

Show me the quotes where he says Trae should:

"not trust his teammates"

"take all of the shots unless he is in trouble"

 

This is you misrepresenting his position over and over.  It is the fact that you are misrepresenting it that brings me to the conversation.  Otherwise, I would only be chiming in to that debate to give my own view not to comment on how you guys are engaging with each other.   I'm not coming in as a mod - it is just frustrating to me to see someone appropriate and misrepresent someone else's position.  

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Nope.  Again you are misrepresenting his position.  He has said it many posts and yet  you keep putting words in his mouth that he has contradicted over and over.  

Show me the quotes where he says Trae should:

"not trust his teammates"

"take all of the shots unless he is in trouble"

 

This is you misrepresenting his position over and over.  It is the fact that you are misrepresenting it that brings me to the conversation.  Otherwise, I would only be chiming in to that debate to give my own view not to comment on how you guys are engaging with each other.   I'm not coming in as a mod - it is just frustrating to me to see someone appropriate and misrepresent someone else's position.  

Yep..all the guy talks about is Trae's scoring stats. Like when Trae scores over 32 points, the Hawks are 10-0. Or if he has 20 points and over 10 assist, that's not good for the Hawks. So the assumption is that he wants Trae to focus on his scoring. If that's isn't his view point then I truly don't know what it is

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Yep..all the guy talks about is Trae's scoring stats. Like when Trae scores over 32 points, the Hawks are 10-0. Or if he has 20 points and over 10 assist, that's not good for the Hawks. So the assumption is that he wants Trae to focus on his scoring. If that's isn't his view point then I truly don't know what it is

I'm not sure how but this appears to be the case.

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not sure how but this appears to be the case.

So you agree that that poster focuses on Trae's scoring stats then so my Iverson analogy was not that far off. To me it is short sighted to think that a team can win chanpionship if it's point guard focused on his scoring 1st and foremost.  It certainly a bizarre notion to fathom that player think that he has to score 30 to win a game. I strongly disagree with that notion.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So you agree that that poster focuses on Trae's scoring stats then so my Iverson analogy was not that far off. To me it is short sighted to think that a team can win chanpionship if it's point guard focused on his scoring 1st and foremost.  It certainly a bizarre notion to fathom that player think that he has to score 30 to win a game. I strongly disagree with that notion.

No.  I agree that you don't understand his point.  (I'm assuming you aren't deliberately misrepresenting it.)

[Peoriabird]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

No.  I agree that you don't understand his point.  (I'm assuming you aren't deliberately misrepresenting it.)

You state his point then. And please don't bring up the John Stockton BS because no one has suggested that Trae Young play like him

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You state his point then.

I did it several times on the other thread like two weeks ago and he and others have done it as well.

 

On 2/22/2021 at 10:17 AM, AHF said:

Here is my read:  The comment on the prior page about it not working for Trae to make the "right" play (note the quotes there that indicate that use of this word is a misnomer) was talking about how for Trae him taking a playmaking first role (i.e., trying more to emulate someone like John Stockton who put getting others shots well ahead of getting his own shot) is wrong for Trae and this team.  What is in fact the right play is one that involves Trae aggressively looking for his own shot while also running the offense to involve others and not Trae taking a more passive "create-first" type of role.  A PG prioritizing his own shot has historically been viewed as the "wrong" way for a PG to play which is where the original quote comes in.

There will be nights were Trae doesn't shoot as well and the efficiency isn't there but Trae's last two seasons have showed he can be an efficient, high volume scoring guard in addition to an outstanding passer.  

Here is his latest (?) restatement of it for clarity.  You note the complete lack of advocating that Trae ignore his teammates, take all the shots and play like Allen Iverson:

23 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I already explained myself in that thread and again in this one.  But what the hell, here goes again. 

When I say "playing the right way," I'm talking about this idea that LP used to talk about all the time and several, including you, on here have alluded to.  That is, pass the ball around until it finds an open man, making the extra pass to get the best shot.  The problem I have had with that system is - with few notable exceptions - this team didn't have the supporting cast around Trae to actually MAKE the open shots consistently.  How many times have we all groaned when Cam or Gallo or even Kevin missed a wide open shot throughout the game?  But hey, Trae made the "right pass" and his teammates blew it.  

With Trae, he needs to score for the Hawks to win.  The data suggests he needs to score at least 25-26 points for them to win.  I hope we can agree on that, since it's factual information and not my opinion. My point in saying that "playing the right way" doesn't really work for Trae is that generally when he plays games with a focus on facilitating, he does so in lieu of looking for his own shot.  Against the Pacers he played the entire game and didn't take a single 3.  But hey, he had 14 asts so he was really facilitating.  And the Hawks lost by 12 pts.  

What I have noticed with Trae is that he's almost always going to find his teammates throughout the game.  He's only had two games all year with less than 5 ast and only 6 games with less than 7.  He's going to facilitate. But he seems to play better overall when he establishes himself as a scorer FIRST and then lets the rest of his game flow through that.  "Playing the right way"* runs counter to that because it means that early in the game and throughout the entire game he should always be looking to make the next pass and facilitate for his teammates.  But his teammates don't consistently come through.  And not only that, defenses KNOW his teammates don't come through consistently so Cam / Solo / etc... will ALWAYS be open for Trae to pass to.  So when he's more focused on looking for his teammates, he's foregoing his own shot to the detriment of the team.  

I'm not now - and have never - said he shouldn't rack up assists or that he shouldn't facilitate or make the right pass. What I am saying is that usually when he's focused on that early on, he has a harder time getting into his own offense later.  

Bottom line for me, Trae seems to play better overall (that's both scoring and facilitating) when he's looking to score first and then letting the passing flow out of that mindset.  And it makes sense too because as he establishes himself scoring, it will open up more spacing for his teammates and make their offense easier.  And not JUST 3pters.  I want him focusing on the floater and attacking.  Then once he's drawing the defenders, pass out of it.  It also gets him in an early rhythm that a lot of times is carried throughout the game.  

I really hope this makes sense.  I'm tired of arguing with you about this, but this is my opinion.  And it's one that's backed up by a good bit of data.  I'd appreciate if you want to discuss it, that you at least characterize what I say accurately going forward.  

AHF - Insert:

* = Note the quotation marks to indicate that "right" here is actually a misnomer based on the perspective traditionally applied to PGs through the lens of "Stockton style = right way to play."

It expressly states he wants to see Trae get his offense going to pressure the defense and then use the space that pressure creates for his teammates to facilitate and make passes like the one to Snell for premium scoring opportunities and that, in his view, this approach will benefit the team more than simply moving the ball around to the open shooter on every possession and especially early in games.

[Peoriabird]

37 minutes ago, AHF said:

I did it several times on the other thread like two weeks ago and he and others have done it as well.

 

Here is his latest (?) restatement of it for clarity.  You note the complete lack of advocating that Trae ignore his teammates, take all the shots and play like Allen Iverson:

It expressly states he wants to see Trae get his offense going to pressure the defense and then use the space that pressure creates for his teammates to facilitate and make passes like the one to Snell for premium scoring opportunities and that, in his view, this approach will benefit the team more than simply moving the ball around to the open shooter on every possession and especially early in games.

So that isn't consistent with making the right play. If you are going so call get your offense going 1st despite the defense being played against you then you will be forcing up a lot of shots but if you pass early out of those traps then you might find a better shot.  Maybe I'm struggling with phrase get his offense going 1st because sometimes that isn't the right play.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

You state his point then. And please don't bring up the John Stockton BS because no one has suggested that Trae Young play like him

What NBA PG . . past or present, would you like Trae to play like?

[Atlantaholic]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

The reason he is discussed is that our backup PG position is a high impact, limited minutes position that we have struggled badly to fill over the last few years and McConnell has been available twice and ultimately signed low $$ contracts elsewhere.  Look at the differential when Trae is on and off the floor.  Part of that is driven by Trae's dramatic impact on offense but part of that is also driven by having to play guys like Brandon Goodwin who aren't particularly good passers or shooters (.438% TS% this season).  

McConnell is an obvious fit for that need with his .540% - .555% TS% the last 3 seasons to go with his 9.6 ap36 number the last two years (at a nearly 4:1 a/to ratio).  He isn't a world beater but no one is claiming that he is.  Just that he would be a massive upgrade when Trae goes to the bench over what we have gotten from Goodwin, Rondo, Turner, etc.  And he has been super available and just not pursued with sufficient incentive to get it done.

He has posted a roughly 16.3 PER and .121 WS/48 number the last two years.  Those would have ranked second among guards last season (16.5 and .121 compared to 12.2 / .043 for Teague, 11.6 / .013 for Goodwin) and second among guards this season (16.0 and .121 compared to 9.7 / .025 for Rondo, 8.1 / .006 for Goodwin).  While I only list the numbers for our other backup PGs, the term "guard" also covers Cam, Huerter, Bogi, Bembry, Crabbe, Turner, etc. who we have had play the 1 or 2 spot.

I hope it is obvious why that kind of step up in those minutes could be impactful even if McConnell isn't some amazing player.

Stop using "analytics" and any other form of statistical measure that exists to prove a point. It's all just noise because T.J. McConnell is not been a difference maker according to non explained reasons. 

We are better off with Goodwin, Dunn and Rondo, we are paying them a lot more money after all. 

[terrell]

6 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Yes we are 2 games out but so are like 5 other teams. We are really gonna need to play very well to get the 6th seed and probably finish several games over .500. It's a long shot, but if we can get some more people back sooner rather than later it should be possible. 

But alot of those teams play each other in the 2nd half too..You can make up games quick with a winning streak..lol

Edited March 5, 2021 by terrell

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, terrell said:

But we play alot of those teams play each other in the 2nd half too..You can make up games quick with a winning streak..lol

For sure, but it's not easy to do. There's a reason every team is bunched up at around .500. I don't even know if we've had a three game winning streak all season. 

[Peoriabird]

44 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What NBA PG . . past or present, would you like Trae to play like?

Chris Paul

[kg01]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

Blah, blah, bleh .... McConnell isn't some amazing player.

So we agree then? 

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

For sure, but it's not easy to do. There's a reason every team is bunched up at around .500. I don't even know if we've had a three game winning streak all season. 

We'll have one Thursday.

[kg01]

45 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What NBA PG . . past or present, would you like Trae to play like?

Magic Johnson with a little Michael Jordan mixed in?

[Atlantaholic]

Fun fact: McConnell leads the NBA in steals despite coming off the bench. 

[bleachkit]

44 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Chris Paul

Trae would have to get that mid range shot going, which Paul is excellent at. Paul also has strong, quick hands on defense.

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Fun fact: McConnell leads the NBA in steals despite coming off the bench. 

Anyone complaining about his production at his price tag is off. The starting thing I believe is BS because...well even a look at a boxscore can help with that. We probably would be .500 today if he was here. Just look at the bench numbers we have for this season and think about having a backup point as opposed to injured guys and Goodwin. Want to acknowledged many on here wanted McConnell and not just one or two of us. Still very interested in a healed up Dunn causing problems for our opponent guards. Fingers crossed here.