Trae = Historical.

[bleachkit]

It's including James Hardens current season, which Luka also qualifies for. If you lower the assists to 8, that also adds a lot of players.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

It's including James Hardens current season, which Luka also qualifies for. If you lower the assists to 8, that also adds a lot of players.

Lowering the assist number definitely adds a ton of players.  Once you start getting to 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 apg there is a huge difference in how elite and exclusive the list of players who can hit each of those marks is.  Lots of guys like Stephon Marbury hit 8 apg (he did it 7 times) but never get to 9 apg or get to 7 assists like AI (5 times) but never reach 8 or 9.  Even though they are only 1 apg apart, it is a huge differentiator for who is inside and outside the pool.

[bleachkit]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Lowering the assist number definitely adds a ton of players.  Once you start getting to 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 apg there is a huge difference in how elite and exclusive the list of players who can hit each of those marks is.  Lots of guys like Stephon Marbury hit 8 apg (he did it 7 times) but never get to 9 apg or get to 7 assists like AI (5 times) but never reach 8 or 9.  Even though they are only 1 apg apart, it is a huge differentiator for who is inside and outside the pool.

Steph too I believe had 8.5 one year, probably other guys too that I'm not recalling.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Steph too I believe had 8.5 one year, probably other guys too that I'm not recalling.

Plenty of them.  Damian Lillard's career high apg is 8.0; Curry is 8.5 (his only season over 8); Lowry is 8.7 (his only season over 8); Kyrie Irving peaks at 6.9; Fox is 7.5; Conley 6.5; Dragic 7.4; etc.  Every step down that ladder expands the pool almost exponentially.  

[HawkItus]

12 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

I wasn't completely sold on Trae, until I saw him live.  That kid works so hard to score, and has that superstar swagger that no Hawk since Dominique has had on the court.  Of course, it helped that this was the first game I saw him live.

 

 

Man he damn near had a 40-20 triple double one of the games I attended.  It was like watching Vick/Sanders/Nique/96 Braves

 in the glory days.

[HawkItus]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Remove the free throw percentage and redo it. 

Why?  There have been some some outstanding FT shooters in this league.  Most of the elite guards are expected to be high 80's

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Looks like I may be wrong about the total number of seasons as it appears that in addition to hiding the top 10 seasons, basketball reference also now cuts off the total at 20:

That would not apply to others with only 2 and 4 responsive seasons.  There just could be more than 20 for a simple 25 & 9.

I've ran this before during last season.  In that top 10, you're going to see Oscar Robertson about 5 more times, with Harden and Westbrook rounding out the top 10. Looks like Luka and Trae will do it this year, unless Trae's production goes down under Nate.  That list is really exclusive.

[thecampster]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

It's including James Hardens current season, which Luka also qualifies for. If you lower the assists to 8, that also adds a lot of players.

And if you would just expand the goal posts by 5 yards, there would be a lot more kickers with 40 straight makes.....smdh.

[bleachkit]

27 minutes ago, thecampster said:

And if you would just expand the goal posts by 5 yards, there would be a lot more kickers with 40 straight makes.....smdh.

Did I offend you? My apologies.

[Diesel]

Point being... Trae is in rare air.    Hope  he's more Jerry West than Mike Adams.

 

[thecampster]

8 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Did I offend you? My apologies.

No it was just a ridiculous take that required a ridiculous response.

[MarylandHawk]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Point being... Trae is in rare air.    Hope  he's more Jerry West than Mike Adams.

 

We got a special one. Good coaching and management will take advantage of his abilities. 

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

No it was just a ridiculous take that required a ridiculous response.

How is it a ridiculous take? I'm not dismissing his accomplishments, but I'm just saying setting arbitrary metrics can get you different results. 

[RedDawg#8]

26 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

How is it a ridiculous take? I'm not dismissing his accomplishments, but I'm just saying setting arbitrary metrics can get you different results. 

In a metta sense, aren't all metric based accomplishments innately arbitrary?

 

[bleachkit]

12 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

In a metta sense, aren't all metric based accomplishments innately arbitrary?

 

Well yes, that's why I think it's worthwhile to look at the results if you slightly alter your metrics, to give you context and comparison. 

[AUhawksfan]

I think in this case, Trae is in obvious rare company in the fact that his assist numbers are so high as well as his scoring.  There have been guys with high assists but aren't big scorers (Nash, Kidd, Stockton) and then there are guys that are big time scorers but not as much on the assists (Iverson, Marbury, Curry).  I get the point, even though Trae could always be more efficient with his shooting percentages.

That said, I get what @bleachkit is saying in this era of stats about everything.  They'll mention "this is the first time in NBA history a player has scored exactly 16 points, 12 rebounds, and 5 assists after only being 4 days removed coming off the injured reserve in their 3rd season, and has a rap album as well as a rookie head coach on a team in the atlantic conference."  What a historical night!  I've seen some pretty ridiculous stats thrown out that truly don't mean much.

[Gray Mule]

Yes.  We all agree.  Trae is a real NBA star.  And, he has the stats to prove it.

HOWEVER

The NBA is a team sport.  The Hawk team is on a roll.  We've won our last two !!  All of us are really, really excited about our beloved Hawk team.  We like the idea of winning.  We could fall in love with the idea.  We all expect this winning to continue.  We want to end the season with a winning record.

The question we all have in the back of our mind:  "Can this team become healthy enough and, if we do, can we count on Trae to carry us the remainder of the season?"  That's what a real star does.  He leads his team to victory.  

Hawks have a new head coach.  He's had a winning record with his previous teams.  We hope and expect the same from him here in Atlanta.  

Health, or the lack of it, will be a big factor.  Teamwork.  Nate has his work cut out for him.  Mold there Hawk players into a team.  And, Trae must be their leader.  The pieces are here.  

[sturt]

SIAP.

Me, I kinda like this guy going off on Trae.

"Trae will never be the best player on a championship team.... the sooner Trae accepts that, the better his career will be... the way Atlanta is currently constructed with Trae as their number one, I don't even think they'll make the playoffs."

Let's hear more of that. Better for us, imo. Just grow that chip to XXL size.

He's not wrong that opposing players have some clear problems with Trae, and took pleasure in escorting him off the ASG stage. But (a) who cares, and (b) don't want to get ahead of myself like this guy does, but let's just say I'm intrigued to find out how well his schtick ages.

 

 

 

 

[thecampster]

21 hours ago, bleachkit said:

How is it a ridiculous take? I'm not dismissing his accomplishments, but I'm just saying setting arbitrary metrics can get you different results. 

I can't believe you triggered me...on Sunday morning no less. You're making Jesus sad. I can't believe I'm having to defend this.

 

These numbers aren't arbitrary. They show a level of diversity in his offensive ability never before showcased.

Point 1: He isn't averaging 40%...he's averaging 43% from the field.

Point 2: He isn't averaging 35% from 3, but 37.8%.

Point 3: He isn't averaging 87% from FT% but 87.8%.

Point 4: Not 25 ppg, but 26.4.

Point 5: Not 9 apg but 9.4.

 

To the above points. The thresholds were not set to elevate Trae. He's exceeding all of them.  They were the ceiling for other talent. The were set to create a point of demarcation. Not to squeeze Trae in, but squeeze others out. In basketball, an extra 3% FG% is significant, as is an extra 2.8% from 3.  In the course of a game, 90 shots are taken, 34 of which are 3's.  This means the average shot is worth a potential 2.38 points.  A 3% increase in shooting percentage is 6.42 more points per game. That Trae exceeds this "arbitrary" number by 3% means he's being much more efficient offensively, to the tune of 6.42 points per game more.

Now 43% isn't a good shooting percentage. However, if you factor in he takes 17.9 shots per game, of which 3 register as shooting attempts where he is fouled in the act of shooting, these go as shooting attempts (there is wonkiness in how the NBA counts and doesn't account shot attempts in the act of shooting).  It is fair to say these 3 misses per game are attributed to him being fouled. So his actually shooting percentage is 7.7 attempts on 14.9 shots or 51.7%.

The reason these stats are combined is because players who shoot at a volume, tend not to get assists. Those players tend to earn their living at the free throw line and are not looking to pass. The ppg + assists leads a person to believe he is rare talent who can do both.  Players who drive for themselves also tend to shoot a low percentage and make it up at the free throw line.  Trae is beating that curve too because he is controlling the contact. The getting a player on his hip (something I mentioned pre Trae draft) and waiting on the lane contact getting up a shot. The hesitation drives (something Schröder refused to do). The pull up floater which baits the big to step out next time. The getting people into foul trouble setting them up for later in the game where they have to play passive defense.  Stats show these things if you care to look.

 

On to the 2 players mentioned...Stockton (one of my all time favs) and Kidd.

Stockton's best season (89-90), he shot 51.4% (11.3 fga/g) from the field and 40.7% from 3. He tallied 14.5 apg. Historic numbers.  But he was only taking the shots he could make as evidenced by his 17.2 ppg and his 5.5 FTA per game. He also shot 81.9% from the FT line.  The FG% and APG only makes sense if you also consider he wasn't looking for contact and wasn't the offensive focal point. A large number of those assists can be attributed to people being terrified of Karl Malone. Stockton is an all time great but in his best season, he was averaging over 9 points less per game than Trae and drawing 6 less free throw attempts. He wasn't the focus of the offense and this made his time at the point easier. He faced far fewer double teams and many more open shot attempts. 

 

Kidd's best season was 98-99. He shot 44.4% from the field and 36.6% from 3. He scored 16.9 ppg and handed out 10.8 apg. He shot 75.7% from the free throw line. In kid's best season he roughly shot the same from the field as Trae but again, over 6 less FTA and almost 10 less ppg.

 

These numbers aren't arbitrary. Its an if this/than that type of an argument. If a volume scorer, percentages suffer, players get injured. If getting assists, ppg suffers. These numbers defy the convention and the line wasn't cut off at his stats, he exceeds the line in every category. They were established to show the variance between what he's doing and other players' ceilings.

 

Your comment was ridiculous. I stand by that.

Edited March 7, 2021 by thecampster

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

I can't believe you triggered me...on Sunday morning no less. You're making Jesus sad. I can't believe I'm having to defend this.

 

These numbers aren't arbitrary. They show a level of diversity in his offensive ability never before showcased.

Point 1: He isn't averaging 40%...he's averaging 43% from the field.

Point 2: He isn't averaging 35% from 3, but 37.8%.

Point 3: He isn't averaging 87% from FT% but 87.8%.

Point 4: Not 25 ppg, but 26.4.

Point 5: Not 9 apg but 9.4.

 

To the above points. The thresholds were not set to elevate Trae. He's exceeding all of them.  They were the ceiling for other talent. The were set to create a point of demarcation. Not to squeeze Trae in, but squeeze others out. In basketball, an extra 3% FG% is significant, as is an extra 2.8% from 3.  In the course of a game, 90 shots are taken, 34 of which are 3's.  This means the average shot is worth a potential 2.38 points.  A 3% increase in shooting percentage is 6.42 more points per game. That Trae exceeds this "arbitrary" number by 3% means he's being much more efficient offensively, to the tune of 6.42 points per game more.

Now 43% isn't a good shooting percentage. However, if you factor in he takes 17.9 shots per game, of which 3 register as shooting attempts where he is fouled in the act of shooting, these go as shooting attempts (there is wonkiness in how the NBA counts and doesn't account shot attempts in the act of shooting).  It is fair to say these 3 misses per game are attributed to him being fouled. So his actually shooting percentage is 7.7 attempts on 14.9 shots or 51.7%.

The reason these stats are combined is because players who shoot at a volume, tend not to get assists. Those players tend to earn their living at the free throw line and are not looking to pass. The ppg + assists leads a person to believe he is rare talent who can do both.  Players who drive for themselves also tend to shoot a low percentage and make it up at the free throw line.  Trae is beating that curve too because he is controlling the contact. The getting a player on his hip (something I mentioned pre Trae draft) and waiting on the lane contact getting up a shot. The hesitation drives (something Schröder refused to do). The pull up floater which baits the big to step out next time. The getting people into foul trouble setting them up for later in the game where they have to play passive defense.  Stats show these things if you care to look.

 

On to the 2 players mentioned...Stockton (one of my all time favs) and Kidd.

Stockton's best season (89-90), he shot 51.4% (11.3 fga/g) from the field and 40.7% from 3. He tallied 14.5 apg. Historic numbers.  But he was only taking the shots he could make as evidenced by his 17.2 ppg and his 5.5 FTA per game. He also shot 81.9% from the FT line.  The FG% and APG only makes sense if you also consider he wasn't looking for contact and wasn't the offensive focal point. A large number of those assists can be attributed to people being terrified of Karl Malone. Stockton is an all time great but in his best season, he was averaging over 9 points less per game than Trae and drawing 6 less free throw attempts. He wasn't the focus of the offense and this made his time at the point easier. He faced far fewer double teams and many more open shot attempts. 

 

Kidd's best season was 98-99. He shot 44.4% from the field and 36.6% from 3. He scored 16.9 ppg and handed out 10.8 apg. He shot 75.7% from the free throw line. In kid's best season he roughly shot the same from the field as Trae but again, over 6 less FTA and almost 10 less ppg.

 

These numbers aren't arbitrary. Its an if this/than that type of an argument. If a volume scorer, percentages suffer, players get injured. If getting assists, ppg suffers. These numbers defy the convention and the line wasn't cut off at his stats, he exceeds the line in every category. They were established to show the variance between what he's doing and other players' ceilings.

 

Your comment was ridiculous. I stand by that.

Wanting to see other players with similar metrics for a basis of comparison is ridiculous? No, it's relevant. Why are you using Stockton and Kidd, guys that played in a different era? Nice try. Other guards in the NBA are having better statistical seasons that Trae RIGHT NOW.

Luka-28.6 PTS/9 AST/8.4TRB / .478FG%/.357 3PT%/ .757 FT%/ .541eFG

Dame-29.8 PTS/8 AST/4.3TRB/  .445FG%/ .384 3PT%/ .933 FT%/ .548eFG

Harden-25.3 PTS/11.1AST/ 7.8TRB/ .484FG%/ .401 3PT%/ .859 FT%/ .581eFG

So yes, you can set ARBITRARY lines among any of these players that would exclude the other, including Trae.