John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat


NBASupes
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16 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Hunter is #2 if are talking futures value. Clint is not #2 in futures value or higher than Bogi.

You overrate Bogi. 

In the playoffs, he's like 16, 6, and 3. 

That's good but he's not the defensive anchor on our team.   During these playoffs, Clint is like 10/12/1.   We have to get stops and we have to get rebounds.   That's what Clint does. 

I agree with you that in the future, Clint's value to us will decline.  So for that reason, we have to have players like OO who are learning under him. 

 

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1 hour ago, Diesel said:

You overrate Bogi. 

In the playoffs, he's like 16, 6, and 3. 

That's good but he's not the defensive anchor on our team.   During these playoffs, Clint is like 10/12/1.   We have to get stops and we have to get rebounds.   That's what Clint does. 

I agree with you that in the future, Clint's value to us will decline.  So for that reason, we have to have players like OO who are learning under him. 

 

You and raw stats. It's like you never moved out of the 90s

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11 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Bogi is also hurt because he doesn't get to the line.  That was the fatal flaw of Joe Johnson.

I liken him to Joe oddly enough but he's PnR Bogi or Sniper Bogi instead of Iso Joe 

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2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

You and raw stats. It's like you never moved out of the 90s

You act as though stats are meaningless?  If that be the case, then Solo should be a freakin allstar. 

But seriously, Clint's game translates in the stats and by the eye test.  Bogi will get you 5 rebounds but those be quiet rebounds... quick putbacks.   Clint is the one fighting defenders for position, getting rebounds.  At the end of the day, we need Clint much more than we need Bogi. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You act as though stats are meaningless?  If that be the case, then Solo should be a freakin allstar. 

But seriously, Clint's game translates in the stats and by the eye test.  Bogi will get you 5 rebounds but those be quiet rebounds... quick putbacks.   Clint is the one fighting defenders for position, getting rebounds.  At the end of the day, we need Clint much more than we need Bogi. 

 

Raw stats are meaningless if you don't understand them which is clear that you don't 

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On 6/11/2021 at 2:04 PM, Marvin24Williams said:

4/$90 million is my sweet spot for him, just not a fan of anything above that. Obviously though, the Hawks can't afford to lose a player of his caliber so they should match anything in restricted FA if a trade can't be made. 

The problem is the Hawks can’t afford to lose JC but we also can’t afford to overpay. I’ll say it again if John could create his own shot constantly and score 20 points a game then he’s a max player. But the truth is he rarely creates his own shot and is more of do it all clean up roll player. Imagine if JC was drafted to a Utah or Denver where there’s already players everywhere, then his numbers would be way down and you could sign him for a reasonable price. But he got drafted to us when we had nothing so he was the best player on a team with nothing. So his numbers were inflated but he also had plenty of court time to grow. And still never has consistently showed he can create his own shot. Signing JC to a max will hurt this team’s future more than help it. 

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12 hours ago, JTB said:

At the end of the day @NBASupes and @Diesel we have a very good starting lineup when healthy and perhaps even a top 10 bench healthy.

we just need to worry about adding on rather then taking away.

You can’t add if you have no money to spend. Losing JC is an obvious step back in the short term so that you have available space in the future. Trae has shown he is a star who is a facilitator and makes others better. Hopefully that’ll attract another player truly worthy of a max contract.

 

Also you can’t call JC a 3 and D player because his D just isn’t there. The numbers are against him and stats say he’s a subpar defensive player. He’s really no bigger than Dre but he can’t guard small forwards and he certainly can’t guard big centers. The truth is if he doesn’t sign for 90 or less I highly doubt he’ll be a Hawk much longer.

Edited by timebomb
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1 hour ago, timebomb said:

You can’t add if you have no money to spend. Losing JC is an obvious step back in the short term so that you have available space in the future. Trae has shown he is a star who is a facilitator and makes others better. Hopefully that’ll attract another player truly worthy of a max contract.

 

Also you can’t call JC a 3 and D player because his D just isn’t there. The numbers are against him and stats say he’s a subpar defensive player. He’s really no bigger than Dre but he can’t guard small forwards and he certainly can’t guard big centers. The truth is if he doesn’t sign for 90 or less I highly doubt he’ll be a Hawk much longer.

I never called JC a 3&D player, the thing is if we can’t replace what he gives us then we mind as well keep him but this is debatable depending on your outlook of the team and how close they are to winning a championship but that’s for another thread. The issue with giving up on JC so early right now is risking what HE COULD turn into .
 

Take Julius Randle for example…he always played a powerful physical type of style with his game even in college  but he added to it in a major way at age 26 this past season with becoming a better shooter and playmaker. Of course Randle showed in the playoffs he can’t be your number 1 option but I’m probably one of the few that believe he COULD be a teams 2nd best option if he had a true number 1 star on the Knicks and a few more shooters around.

But back to JC and using the Randle example above….I don’t agree with paying JC anything over 90…I can budge at 95….but in no way is he a max player that’s something everyone or most has agreed on. Offense seems to be his thing but his output shows he’s not yet a max player offensively because he can’t create for himself nor is he a playmaker HOWEVER there’s some fantastic elite offensive traits that JC gives us that aren’t talked about enough……

JC is an elite screen setter (I know I know sounds like a small thing and that anyone can set a screen …until you get that uncommitted Dwight Howard type player THEN you learn to appreciate the screen setters a lot more)

JC is elite in reading the defense off the screen when it comes to rolling or popping

JC is elite at slipping screens even got KD to publicly give him praise on that.

JC is elite at efficiency…he hits his jumpers and he finishes around the goal very well for the most part.

JC is a good rebounder but of course this is harder to show with Capela who’s elite at the boards and pulls down everything in his eyesight.

JC is a great locker room guy. He’s very vocal to be so young.

JC knows Trae is the franchise star and on the outside he’s very cool about it.

JC is coachable and not cocky 

JC can be a very good off ball moving big man IF we play him that way.

 

There was a time with Giannis couldn’t control the ball then he worked on it in a tremendous way next thing you know Giannis is having mvp type seasons. I say that to say Collins has improved on something every single season and while I won’t say he has some mvp seasons coming up, I will say I am very positive we haven’t seen the best of Collins offensively. There’s no risk in signing him long term he just don’t need the max long term.


This starting lineup of…Trae, Bogi, Hunter, Collins, Capela is a winning starting lineup and a playoff lineup. In my eyes there are 4 players who can all get around 20 pts per game with Trae and Hunter being the two highest scorers. But I truly believe that ….we need to see more of this starting 5 and we need a ton of more plays designed for Collins! Collins like I said above is so good at setting screens, finishing, and I believe moving off ball as a big I don’t think he necessarily has to learn how to be a better dribbler or playmaker to have great impact on the team.

This off-season McMillan need to JC a focal point offensively and have more plays ran for him to score to get in rhythm because we have 3 other guys that can put the ball on the floor and go and get buckets if their number is called. Trae is option 1 and Hunter is option 2…..But the primary playmakers Trae and Bogi should be looking for JC a lot more when they are running plays.

 

 

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1 minute ago, hylndr11 said:

Then he should be able.to get Simmons off of trae but we havent really seen that , guess.simmons.is that good at sticking to him 

We need Simmons off of trae so we can get trea.in the paint and draw fouls in imbeed

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7 minutes ago, JTB said:

He don’t have enough plays ran for him. Like I said in my post above McMillan is going to have to make him a focal point in terms of plays being ran to get the most out of JC.

We know JC isn’t a dribbler or playmaker and so does this coaching staff. So to get the best out of JC we need to put him in more off ball movement plays similar to what Memphis does with JJJ to free him up.

Collins has proven one thing….If he gets good looks he can score the ball. We need to use that elite efficiency trait he possesses.

Agreed I was just saying it to get trea.a little more space 

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3 hours ago, timebomb said:

The problem is the Hawks can’t afford to lose JC but we also can’t afford to overpay. I’ll say it again if John could create his own shot constantly and score 20 points a game then he’s a max player. But the truth is he rarely creates his own shot and is more of do it all clean up roll player. Imagine if JC was drafted to a Utah or Denver where there’s already players everywhere, then his numbers would be way down and you could sign him for a reasonable price. But he got drafted to us when we had nothing so he was the best player on a team with nothing. So his numbers were inflated but he also had plenty of court time to grow. And still never has consistently showed he can create his own shot. Signing JC to a max will hurt this team’s future more than help it. 

You are right except that John can create his own shot.  The Hawks just have to run plays for him. In fact if they ran the offense through him this series he would be a mismatch for Harris. They would then have to double team him which would open up the offense for the guards and wings. If they put Embiid on him, that would open up the offense for Capella and Trae. He can score in the post, he can face up, and he can up the ball on the floor if he has to. They have to trust him to do that. 

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30 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

You are right except that John can create his own shot.  The Hawks just have to run plays for him. In fact if they ran the offense through him this series he would be a mismatch for Harris. They would then have to double team him which would open up the offense for the guards and wings. If they put Embiid on him, that would open up the offense for Capella and Trae. He can score in the post, he can face up, and he can up the ball on the floor if he has to. They have to trust him to do that. 

Harris has played excellent D on JC this series.  IMO running the O through JC is a losing plan.

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3 hours ago, JTB said:

 

But back to JC and using the Randle example above….I don’t agree with paying JC anything over 90…I can budge at 95….but in no way is he a max player that’s something everyone or most has agreed on.

 

 

If JC got an offer sheet worth the MAX from some other team, would you want the Hawks to match it?

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