John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

I never called JC a 3&D player, the thing is if we can’t replace what he gives us then we mind as well keep him but this is debatable depending on your outlook of the team and how close they are to winning a championship but that’s for another thread. The issue with giving up on JC so early right now is risking what HE COULD turn into .
 

Take Julius Randle for example…he always played a powerful physical type of style with his game even in college  but he added to it in a major way at age 26 this past season with becoming a better shooter and playmaker. Of course Randle showed in the playoffs he can’t be your number 1 option but I’m probably one of the few that believe he COULD be a teams 2nd best option if he had a true number 1 star on the Knicks and a few more shooters around.

But back to JC and using the Randle example above….I don’t agree with paying JC anything over 90…I can budge at 95….but in no way is he a max player that’s something everyone or most has agreed on. Offense seems to be his thing but his output shows he’s not yet a max player offensively because he can’t create for himself nor is he a playmaker HOWEVER there’s some fantastic elite offensive traits that JC gives us that aren’t talked about enough……

JC is an elite screen setter (I know I know sounds like a small thing and that anyone can set a screen …until you get that uncommitted Dwight Howard type player THEN you learn to appreciate the screen setters a lot more)

JC is elite in reading the defense off the screen when it comes to rolling or popping

JC is elite at slipping screens even got KD to publicly give him praise on that.

JC is elite at efficiency…he hits his jumpers and he finishes around the goal very well for the most part.

JC is a good rebounder but of course this is harder to show with Capela who’s elite at the boards and pulls down everything in his eyesight.

JC is a great locker room guy. He’s very vocal to be so young.

JC knows Trae is the franchise star and on the outside he’s very cool about it.

JC is coachable and not cocky 

JC can be a very good off ball moving big man IF we play him that way.

 

There was a time with Giannis couldn’t control the ball then he worked on it in a tremendous way next thing you know Giannis is having mvp type seasons. I say that to say Collins has improved on something every single season and while I won’t say he has some mvp seasons coming up, I will say I am very positive we haven’t seen the best of Collins offensively. There’s no risk in signing him long term he just don’t need the max long term.

This starting lineup of…Trae, Bogi, Hunter, Collins, Capela is a winning starting lineup and a playoff lineup. In my eyes there are 4 players who can all get around 20 pts per game with Trae and Hunter being the two highest scorers. But I truly believe that ….we need to see more of this starting 5 and we need a ton of more plays designed for Collins! Collins like I said above is so good at setting screens, finishing, and I believe moving off ball as a big I don’t think he necessarily has to learn how to be a better dribbler or playmaker to have great impact on the team.

This off-season McMillan need to JC a focal point offensively and have more plays ran for him to score to get in rhythm because we have 3 other guys that can put the ball on the floor and go and get buckets if their number is called. Trae is option 1 and Hunter is option 2…..But the primary playmakers Trae and Bogi should be looking for JC a lot more when they are running plays.

 

 

I don't like this because unlike Randle, we seen JC improve his shooting each year. We seen him improve his efficiency.

With Randle we seen a massive jump in three areas but he always was better than JC at most of what he does well. Range, moves with the rock, he always had a handle for a big but he took things to another level with the stepback added. He was always a tough shot maker who lacked efficiency but this year, he was efficiency enough. He always was a decent passer with limited court vision but this was the first time I seen a team run the offense through him. That's not gonna happen ever with JC. I don't see how they are comparable. 

They both work extremely hard and have improved defensive yearly but they still have major flaws on that end where you realize it more scheme and personnel around them more than anything. 

I noticed the thing JC stans do is when their back is against the wall, they post a lot of shit. Like paragraph overload when it's simple. How much is JC really worth and is he a difference maker for us? Of those who think he isn't, they don't want to invest in him like that. Of those who feel he is. They feel like, just give him the contract and if it doesn't workout, we will do something later but it will because I believe in JC. That's where the fanbase is divided. 

JC has improved. That's obvious. He's useful. That's obvious but he more useful than Clint or Bogi? No. Should he get paid what they make, yes. Should he be paid a lot more, no because there is an excellent chance we will regret it and can't move him unless we pay assets to get rid of him. You can like and want to keep JC like me and be willing to trade him because he doesn't fit what you think we need long term if his contract demands are far too great.

Edited June 13, 2021 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Jdawgflow said:

Harris has played excellent D on JC this series.  IMO running the O through JC is a losing plan.

Facts! This is where the anger from the those who want JC but only at a certain price differ from the stans who blame the absence of others for making it harder so that they can keep the player they like. 

JC fans tend to blame Solo, Snell, and Clint for his failures. 

People like me bussing shots at everyone including Trae. We want this team to be contenders and champions more than playing and picking favorites which I get. We all got our guys but like we had to deal with in the highlight factory era, once guys get paid, we adjust our image and expectations for them. 

ISO Joe was highly beloved by Hawks fans till he signed that contract that made him higher paid than Bron, Wade, and everyone else. It made no sense and it killed our chances to jump from pretender to contender. Iso could have been massive at the SF on that team with Teague, Korver, Sap, and Horford. 

[Lurker]

If Collins is given a max offer sheet, I'd really have to lean toward working out a sign and trade. 

The problem is, I'm not sure what I'd do after that, as I am going to remain stubborn and say that Hunter is not going to start at PF for this team.

[DS5]

This is tough. I’m sure some team is willing to give JC the max or close to but if we don’t match, who are we replacing him with? We’re not getting JC’s production with anyone else available to the Hawks. For those saying we should just S&T him, I don’t think it’s that easy and if we do find a partner, considering what his salary will be, we’ll probably have to take on some bad salary back and very unlikely that we’ll get similar talent back. And like many have mentioned, this team is about to get expensive. Schlenk has some difficult decisions to make…

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, Jdawgflow said:

Harris has played excellent D on JC this series.  IMO running the O through JC is a losing plan.

 

He has?  I don't remember Harris slowing JC down.  Especially not 1 on 1.

You know we can actually research stuff like this, to see if you're correct.

 

Game 1

 

Game 2

 

 

Game 3

All FG attempts

https://tinyurl.com/372p6fm6

 

What are you guys seeing that I'm not seeing?

 

[Jdawgflow]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

He has?  I don't remember Harris slowing JC down.  Especially not 1 on 1.

You know we can actually research stuff like this, to see if you're correct.

 

Game 1

 

Game 2

 

 

Game 3

All FG attempts

https://tinyurl.com/372p6fm6

 

What are you guys seeing that I'm not seeing?

 

Granted I have not been able to watch game 3 but the first two games I watched the matchup pretty close and JC was not winning it by any stretch.  If you have numbers 1v1 Harris then I am happy to relent but my eye test showed me that if I am the coach that is not a matchup I feel like I could exploit.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

If Collins is given a max offer sheet, I'd really have to lean toward working out a sign and trade. 

The problem is, I'm not sure what I'd do after that, as I am going to remain stubborn and say that Hunter is not going to start at PF for this team.

Everyone is playing former SFs at PF right now as I posted already. Teams are valuing spacing and defensively versatility. JC offers spacing but we gotta hide him on D like we do Trae. 

[NBASupes]

51 minutes ago, Jdawgflow said:

Granted I have not been able to watch game 3 but the first two games I watched the matchup pretty close and JC was not winning it by any stretch.  If you have numbers 1v1 Harris then I am happy to relent but my eye test showed me that if I am the coach that is not a matchup I feel like I could exploit.

He's being delusional, Harris is whooping JC ass when he gets him 1v1 and we been doing a good job not exposing JC to Harris and hiding him on Simmons but game 3, Simmons whooped his ass as well especially in the 2nd half. Embiid is scoring on JC effortlessly.

Edited June 13, 2021 by NBASupes

[hylndr11]

40 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's being delusional, Harris is whooping JC ass when he gets him 1v1 and we been doing a good job not exposing JC to Harris and hiding him on Simmons but game 3, Simmons whooped his ass as well especially in the 2nd half. Embiid is scoring on JC effortlessly

Shouldn't this not be happening? Apparently Collins is 6.9.with 6.11 wing at 235 lbs and Harris is 6.8 with a 6.11.wing at 225 lbs 

[RedDawg#8]

34 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

Shouldn't this not be happening? Apparently Collins is 6.9.with 6.11 wing at 235 lbs and Harris is 6.8 with a 6.11.wing at 225 lbs 

It's not happening. It's a ton of hyperbole.

Harris is getting buckets on a lot of guys not named John. The only times he beats John is when he helps off a ball screen and Harris throws a floater.

If that's bussing ass then I don't know what to say. Harris killed us off the double drag screen a ton in game 3. JC was typically in no mans land trying to stay attached to Embiid or step up on Harris. The time he stayed attached, Harris had easy looks. The time he left Harris lobbed an alley to Embiid. Either way, Harris wasn't his man on the play. Hill, Huerter or Bogi were all getting left in the dust.

But please let's continue the Collins hate tour '21. 

Or see for yourself 

Combined with JC's videos its really hard to justify this narrative of Harris v Collins.

[MarylandHawk]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

If JC got an offer sheet worth the MAX from some other team, would you want the Hawks to match it?

I would probably lean yes if it did not have a poison pill in it. What I would do if I were the Hawks is inflate the first year of his contract and have the last two years smaller numbers. I would do a four year max but have the first year be something outrageous like 35 mil and have the contract descend with the last year at something less than twenty.  I would even throw in a player option on the last year. 

[MarylandHawk]

3 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

If JC got an offer sheet worth the MAX from some other team, would you want the Hawks to match it?

I also believe this next game is the to find out. Since they are doubling Trae and extending their defense past the three point line, it is time to feed JC. Draw up a couple of specific plays for him, play him extra minutes, and look for him in the flow if the regular offense. If he comes through and we win, he proves his worth. My fear is he won’t get the opportunity and we still lose. 

[Jdawgflow]

46 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

It's not happening. It's a ton of hyperbole.

Harris is getting buckets on a lot of guys not named John. The only times he beats John is when he helps off a ball screen and Harris throws a floater.

If that's bussing ass then I don't know what to say. Harris killed us off the double drag screen a ton in game 3. JC was typically in no mans land trying to stay attached to Embiid or step up on Harris. The time he stayed attached, Harris had easy looks. The time he left Harris lobbed an alley to Embiid. Either way, Harris wasn't his man on the play. Hill, Huerter or Bogi were all getting left in the dust.

But please let's continue the Collins hate tour '21. 

Or see for yourself 

Combined with JC's videos its really hard to justify this narrative of Harris v Collins.

I don’t know if your response was to me or Supes.  My point earlier was that JC is not doing well enough on offense vs Harris to have the offense run through him.  
 

On defense, the whole team is struggling and all need to step it up.  Play like their season is on the line (which it is)!

[MarylandHawk]

14 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

I would probably lean yes if it did not have a poison pill in it. What I would do if I were the Hawks is inflate the first year of his contract and have the last two years smaller numbers. I would do a four year max but have the first year be something outrageous like 35 mil and have the contract descend with the last year at something less than twenty.  I would even throw in a player option on the last year. 

This would be for obvious reasons. 1. To beat the other four year offers he would get. 
2.  Be able to run this team back with a fully healthy Dre and Cam. 
3.  Be able to afford Trae, Dre and Cam extensions. 
4. Have a tradable contract if we are not championship contenders in two years. 

[MarylandHawk]

13 minutes ago, Jdawgflow said:

I don’t know if your response was to me or Supes.  My point earlier was that JC is not doing well enough on offense vs Harris to have the offense run through him.  
 

On defense, the whole team is struggling and all need to step it up.  Play like their season is on the line (which it is)!

John is out there hustling his ass off for buckets where he is the third or fourth option or not an option at all and still putting 18 a game. My point is I would prefer putting him in the the high or low post with Harris defending him. I would put my money on John in that scenario. He needs to be able to abuse that match up. If he doesn’t, then that answers our questions about his ability to be a max player. Honestly it is hard for me to see how we win otherwise unless some thing weird happens. 

[Jdawgflow]

5 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

John is out there hustling his ass off for buckets where he is the third or fourth option or not an option at all and still putting 18 a game. My point is I would prefer putting him in the the high or low post with Harris defending him. I would put my money on John in that scenario. He needs to be able to abuse that match up. If he doesn’t, then that answers our questions about his ability to be a max player. Honestly it is hard for me to see how we win otherwise unless some thing weird happens. 

I think they did try to get JC some 1v1 with Harris in game 1 and he did not “abuse” that matchup.

I agree JC is hustling but I don’t think he is able to win consistently 1v1 like Hunter can and is the reason we are in this spot.  JC is a great 4th option but he is just not the guy (yet? Soon? Never?) to be able to pass him the ball and have him create against the best teams and players.

[MarylandHawk]

5 minutes ago, Jdawgflow said:

I think they did try to get JC some 1v1 with Harris in game 1 and he did not “abuse” that matchup.

I agree JC is hustling but I don’t think he is able to win consistently 1v1 like Hunter can and is the reason we are in this spot.  JC is a great 4th option but he is just not the guy (yet? Soon? Never?) to be able to pass him the ball and have him create against the best teams and players.

I will need to rewatch game one but we won that game and John played well. So you may be proving the point. It is not all about scoring points, it is about getting their second best player to play defense without fouling, spreading the court for shooters and taking the pressure off of Young and Bogdonavic to score. 

[MarylandHawk]

10 minutes ago, MarylandHawk said:

I will need to rewatch game one but we won that game and John played well. So you may be proving the point. It is not all about scoring points, it is about getting their second best player to play defense without fouling, spreading the court for shooters and taking the pressure off of Young and Bogdonavic to score. 

Wow, I am not even finished watching the first quarter and John has touched the ball 12 times with a positive result 11.  I didn’t  even realize I was describing the offensive game plan of the first game. 

[JayBirdHawk]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

JC fans tend to blame Solo, Snell, and Clint for his failures. 

Lol, you're gonna have to show receipts for this cuz I'd sure like to see them.

[JayBirdHawk]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This is where the anger from the those who want JC but only at a certain price differ from the stans who blame the absence of others for making it harder so that they can keep the player......

Why be angry though?

You're mad at him for passing on a deal YOU think is fare, so pretty much everything that follows is you getting mad about it.

We know what the options are in regards to RFAcy...nothing to do but let it play out.