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John Collins - Max kat, 90 million-4yrs kat, or Gallo salary kat


NBASupes

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6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I don't like this because unlike Randle, we seen JC improve his shooting each year. We seen him improve his efficiency.

With Randle we seen a massive jump in three areas but he always was better than JC at most of what he does well. Range, moves with the rock, he always had a handle for a big but he took things to another level with the stepback added. He was always a tough shot maker who lacked efficiency but this year, he was efficiency enough. He always was a decent passer with limited court vision but this was the first time I seen a team run the offense through him. That's not gonna happen ever with JC. I don't see how they are comparable. 

They both work extremely hard and have improved defensive yearly but they still have major flaws on that end where you realize it more scheme and personnel around them more than anything. 

I noticed the thing JC stans do is when their back is against the wall, they post a lot of shit. Like paragraph overload when it's simple. How much is JC really worth and is he a difference maker for us? Of those who think he isn't, they don't want to invest in him like that. Of those who feel he is. They feel like, just give him the contract and if it doesn't workout, we will do something later but it will because I believe in JC. That's where the fanbase is divided. 

JC has improved. That's obvious. He's useful. That's obvious but he more useful than Clint or Bogi? No. Should he get paid what they make, yes. Should he be paid a lot more, no because there is an excellent chance we will regret it and can't move him unless we pay assets to get rid of him. You can like and want to keep JC like me and be willing to trade him because he doesn't fit what you think we need long term if his contract demands are far too great.

Yeah but my comparison isn’t to compare the two between randle and JC it was simply to say because he’s improving every season you don’t know what he’s going to end up being in another 2-3 seasons from now. 
based on potential if you feel Randle is better I’m certainly not going to argue with you lol but my only point is that JC could become more impactful for this team as he continues to grow…not in a Randle type of impactful but impactful on what he’s asked to do on this team.

Honestly I am shifting from caring about JC being a play maker or better dribbler. I want him to get deadly with his face up game and start doing plays running off ball to free himself up for good looks. It’s a little different for a big to run off ball I know but who said guards can’t set screens from time to time 

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Ok @NBASupes you’re schlenk and Collins wants 115 mil over 5 years….obviously you made it clear you’re not giving that to him and this is a business of course you don’t lose him for nothing so tell us what trades do you have in mind ?

im sure you already thought this through

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6 hours ago, DS5 said:

This is tough. I’m sure some team is willing to give JC the max or close to but if we don’t match, who are we replacing him with? We’re not getting JC’s production with anyone else available to the Hawks. For those saying we should just S&T him, I don’t think it’s that easy and if we do find a partner, considering what his salary will be, we’ll probably have to take on some bad salary back and very unlikely that we’ll get similar talent back. And like many have mentioned, this team is about to get expensive. Schlenk has some difficult decisions to make…

Hold that thought …. @NBASupes is going to give us some primetime options  here soon.

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3 hours ago, Jdawgflow said:

I don’t know if your response was to me or Supes.  My point earlier was that JC is not doing well enough on offense vs Harris to have the offense run through him.  
 

On defense, the whole team is struggling and all need to step it up.  Play like their season is on the line (which it is)!

Replying to the question of should be happening, while simultaneously poking holes in the argument that even allowed that narrative to exist.

So no, not directed at you, but using your post as my foot in the door to the convo

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2 hours ago, JTB said:

Ok @NBASupes you’re schlenk and Collins wants 115 mil over 5 years….obviously you made it clear you’re not giving that to him and this is a business of course you don’t lose him for nothing so tell us what trades do you have in mind ?

im sure you already thought this through

I am cool with 5/105 with descending value plus team performance goals but how many 5 year deals can you give out. I know Trae is getting one but I value Hunter getting one more if we are limited in numbers @thecampster?

A 1st rounder in 2022 is pretty much the best we can get and a young player they don't covet much. His trade value isn't trash but we would likely end up getting what we got for Joe Johnson which was Diaw and two 1sts which became Rondo and Robin Lopez but teams don't trade that many picks in the modern NBA so a young player and a 1st will do. At the end of the day, JC is a top 3 player in this FA class and we can afford to match any offer. If you want him, pay us for him and give us a TPE as well. That TPE can get us a missing piece if we notice by ASB, we need more. 

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1 hour ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Replying to the question of should be happening, while simultaneously poking holes in the argument that even allowed that narrative to exist.

So no, not directed at you, but using your post as my foot in the door to the convo

You clearly wasn't talking to me because all you had to do was read my post to know my point answered any doubts on your post. 

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My personal belief is Atlanta is matching everything and should but really open to a SnT. 

The six teams that will be interested in a SnT are:

Sacramento

Indiana

Minnesota 

Memphis

Denver

Chicago

As far as outright sign, Dallas and San Antonio but I don't believe SA will value him at a price point any different than the Hawks. 4/90 really seemed like an exceptional offer for JC. 

Dallas doesn't have the money unless they can ship off KP for free but OKC will ask for your life in terms of future picks and Dallas needs to maintain their assets, not lose em. 

While JC is the #2 guy in this FA period. No one who really needs him has the practical cap space for now in 2021-22. 

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2021/

I really like our chances of signing him to what we previously offered if not less. I honestly like 4/80 the most descending. Considering the cap, I think that's extremely favorable value for JC and I can see him here for the next 10 years if he takes reasonable offers. 

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I could see a team like Charlotte making a run at JC.   Possibly offering him the max.  They'd have to think that his PNR/PNP game with LaMelo will open doors for Heyward to work. 

I can also see any team with a strong 5 and cap room looking at JC. 

I just don't want to see us let him walk for nothing. 

 

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1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I could see a team like Charlotte making a run at JC.   Possibly offering him the max.  They'd have to think that his PNR/PNP game with LaMelo will open doors for Heyward to work. 

I can also see any team with a strong 5 and cap room looking at JC. 

I just don't want to see us let him walk for nothing. 

 

I can imagine CHA being a player for Harrell, although I think he stinks.

CHA should be expecting or wanting the guy they drafted a couple years ago to be like Collins.  Can't recall his name.  The PF from Kentucky that had like 6 good games to start his rookie year, then tailed off.

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2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I could see a team like Charlotte making a run at JC.   Possibly offering him the max.  They'd have to think that his PNR/PNP game with LaMelo will open doors for Heyward to work. 

I can also see any team with a strong 5 and cap room looking at JC. 

I just don't want to see us let him walk for nothing. 

 

Their focus is at the 5. They want Miles Turner and willing to give up a draft asset. The biggest issue and I keep saying this is for who does JC make a difference for? No one. It's likely that 4/90 deal is the best he's going to get from any team considering his playoff performances.

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1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I can imagine CHA being a player for Harrell, although I think he stinks.

CHA should be expecting or wanting the guy they drafted a couple years ago to be like Collins.  Can't recall his name.  The PF from Kentucky that had like 6 good games to start his rookie year, then tailed off.

Harrell is someone Charlotte wanted last year and offered 12 mil per for but he declined it to take a 1 year with the Lakers

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2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Their focus is at the 5. They want Miles Turner and willing to give up a draft asset. The biggest issue and I keep saying this is for who does JC make a difference for? No one. It's likely that 4/90 deal is the best he's going to get from any team considering his playoff performances.

JC is highly respected outside of circles not including supes.   He has good range for a PF and he's young and athletic.   Most of the things that we ragged him for as an incoming rookie:  Range, Defense, etc.  He has addressed.  I don't think he's a max player simply because of consistency.   But he's not an unwanted player in the league.   There are teams that will come after him. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

JC is highly respected outside of circles not including supes.   He has good range for a PF and he's young and athletic.   Most of the things that we ragged him for as an incoming rookie:  Range, Defense, etc.  He has addressed.  I don't think he's a max player simply because of consistency.   But he's not an unwanted player in the league.   There are teams that will come after him. 

 

Diesel, I know you live in the world of Diesel but in reality, no one is giving JC a max deal. He doesn't fit what teams are looking for and the teams who generally would are capped out. I know Diesel, in your world of the 90s, JC is a big deal but in the modern NBA, he has value but not that much damn value. 

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31 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's likely that 4/90 deal is the best he's going to get from any team considering his playoff performances.

If that is the case, then I'd be happy to match a 4/90 offer.  The toughest situation would be a Bogi situation where he signs an offer sheet for a 4 year max or something above where we want to pay and then we can't even negotiate a S&T but simply have to decide whether or not to match.  I'd reserve my opinion until I see that sheet but in general my view is we need to match if we get in that bind.

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Just now, hylndr11 said:

Agree there just.not.enough good players out there, supes is prolly correct regarding a playoff team, they may not value him.morenthan what he got offered but a building team might, question is does he want to go back to that life 

The question is, which rebuilding team like OKC wants to throw that at JC and build around him. 

NY has a lot of money but they want stars and they have PFs

Most teams don't got that much money this upcoming year if you look at their practical cap space 

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/

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5 minutes ago, AHF said:

If that is the case, then I'd be happy to match a 4/90 offer.  The toughest situation would be a Bogi situation where he signs an offer sheet for a 4 year max or something above where we want to pay and then we can't even negotiate a S&T but simply have to decide whether or not to match.  I'd reserve my opinion until I see that sheet but in general my view is we need to match if we get in that bind.

Which is why I am convinced he will be back. The market is weak and no one needs or even would clamer over JC. 

Undersized 4 with no positional versatility, self shot creation skill, or playmaking plus a weaker end man defender. There is a great chance that offer we made was extremely aggressive and more so based on his RS estimates with hope that it translates in the post season and it's a discount but it hasn't and he's more of a clear B- tier prospect. This class is so weak, after JC, I don't even think there is another B tier guy. Just outside of the top 100 rotation guys. Teams aren't letting top 100-150 players hit the market anymore. Teams are valuing depth by a million in this era. Other eras, it was just the stars and superstars and wannabe stars like Smoove. 

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16 minutes ago, AHF said:

If that is the case, then I'd be happy to match a 4/90 offer.  The toughest situation would be a Bogi situation where he signs an offer sheet for a 4 year max or something above where we want to pay and then we can't even negotiate a S&T but simply have to decide whether or not to match.  I'd reserve my opinion until I see that sheet but in general my view is we need to match if we get in that bind.

What if it's 4 year/120. That would not be ideal. 

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7 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

What if it's 4 year/120. That would not be ideal. 

I'd be shocked if someone looked at Collins and decided to give him that kind of contract. He's a player who has never shown the ability to create for himself, and is not a defensive anchor either. Why pay him like he's a top player when most teams don't even have a PG like Trae that can maximize John's talents. I imagine what the Hawks have already offered is not far from other team's valuation. Even if you believe Collins has room for growth, if I'm another team I'd have to question how effective John would be if he was not playing with Trae.

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