2021 vs 2015 Eastern Conference Finals

[Atlantaholic]

15 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Assuming bc they are healthy and even excluding Hunter/Reddish, we have banged up guards and relied on Heurter getting us over the hump.  We have to shoot better

yup, I think a lot of it will depend on whether or not Trae and Bogi can get healthy, or at least adjust to their injuries. 

[Wretch]

11 hours ago, NBASupes said:

LMAO!! 

Horford was massively better than JC or Capela. 

For me, these Hawks are much better because Trae is an offensive superstar, something those teams needed with a passion and this team has. 

This team is just a lot more talented. That team had no one with excellent talent as you seen in my talent thread. Al was talented and Sap was a decent talent but they did it through other means. This team is loaded with talent from Bogi, Kevin, JC, Gallo, and obviously, the extreme talents of Trae Young who's game is built for this shit. 

I clearly got Bogi over Kyle. Kyle wasn't a playoff player. He was what he was. 

I've done some merry-go-round with you and your Horf-love, but...shockingly, I can't disagree with you here Supes.  Give the nod to Capela for rebounding due to consistency and overall better numbers, but Horford's total package - consistent midrange, hustle, and defense - is above and beyond what we have now.  This team with prime Horford at the 4 would WASH the league...even though he's a hoe ass and I never want to see him in this city again.

12 hours ago, Diesel said:

Well, for most of that year, Korver was 50/50/90...   meaning that he shot over 50% from the field 50% from 3 and 90% from the FT line.   I don't care how many tools you have.. a guy that hits 50 percent of his threes.  And he averaged putting up 6 threes a game.  That's freakin inhuman.   Do you know how much KK stretched defenses?  A healthy Bogi is great.. it's just a rare appearance this year so it's hard to appreciate. 

 

I've always said that KK was the key to that team.  He's the reason why we didn't need a star (for the run at least).  When we were destroying teams, Kover was shooting out of his mind and spreading the floor.  If I remember correctly...we had convincing wins against Golden State and Cleveland that year and a healthy Hawks team could have at least taken Bron to 7 I think.

2 hours ago, AHF said:

In the abstact Horford is the best of those players but Horford was a ***** anytime he matched up against Cleveland.  He was scared and frightened and did not compete the way we saw him compete against other teams.

These are Horford's career matchups vs Cleveland in the playoffs for Atlanta:

2009 27 mpg, 3.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg

2015 33 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 4.8 rpg

2016 32.9 mpg, 14.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg

 

Look at that average over 3 series:  

9.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg

Horford's performances vs Cleveland were absolutely shameful.  His ****s shriveling up into his body was a huge reason the Hawks went 0-10 against Cleveland over those 3 series.

This is actual video of Horford when Tristan Thompson stepped onto the floor:

 

Horf and his famous disappearing act.  He was so up and down with those incredible games...and a complete DUD almost every time we needed him in the big moments.

As for the topic at hand...

2015 was bittersweet for me.  It was the first time in my 35 year Hawks-fandom that I truly gave up on the team.  So much so that I became a certified hater.  I wanted to rebuild (like Schlenk successfully did) at the outset of the Ferry regime and his approach, albeit far more developed and fruitful, was similar to Babcock's "win without losing" philosophy. Not to mention the rift that all the drama caused... Those were dark times for me as a Hawks fan, but I digress.

As is or injuries notwithstanding, this is the better team and in better position to make the Finals. 

Trae is more valuable than anyone on that 2015 roster...any combination of starters on that team.  He is a special talent that can carry us in the clutch.  He literally has done that throughout this year's playoffs.

Bogi/KK is a wash. Korver is clearly the better shooter, but Bogi is better at everything else.

Huerter's offense and ability to handle the ball over DMC's defense (and Hunter in a complete wash if we're healthy).

SAP's ability to create his own shot over JC, but not by a super wide margin.

Horf's overall package over Capela's defense and rebounding.

This bench destroys that bench.

[Diesel]

Here's my litmus.

We know that if we replace Trae for Teague in 2015, then the 2015 team would become very hard to beat. 

But the question becomes...

Which Hawks starter in 2015 could you add to replace in 2021 that would make us overall better.

Choices are:  

A.   KK for Bogi

B.  Sap for JC 

C.   Horf for Capella 

D.   DMC for Red Velvet. 

 

 

[JeffS17]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Here's my litmus.

We know that if we replace Trae for Teague in 2015, then the 2015 team would become very hard to beat. 

But the question becomes...

Which Hawks starter in 2015 could you add to replace in 2021 that would make us overall better.

Choices are:  

A.   KK for Bogi

B.  Sap for JC 

C.   Horf for Capella 

D.   DMC for Red Velvet. 

 

 

Maybe KK for Bogi?  But only because Kev has stepped up as another ball handler.  Neither KK or Bogi are good defenders but KK was beyond elite from 3 that season and we have been ice cold so far... Horford for Capela is a wash imo, Capela is better in the PnR but doesn't have much else.  I think he's a marginally better rebounder than Horford and their defense is comparable (although I think Horford would have done much better 1:1 against Embiid)

Edited June 22, 2021 by JeffS17
Typos

[AUhawksfan]

The 2015 team was very talented as a sum of its parts, a true team where everyone had a role they played well.  That said, I never entered the playoffs super confident with them.  I figured they'd make somewhat deep in the playoffs due to their high seeding but I didn't sense that "it" factor.  Nobody that was a superstar who wanted the ball and wasn't afraid of big moments.  That is something you absolutely need in the playoffs when the game slows down.  A lot of the series felt like a struggle and I wasn't surprised when the Cavs swept them.  Even if we matched up talent wise, they had experience and we couldn't recover when they threw their punches.

With this team we have a superstar who relishes the big moments and the spotlight and have had some others along the way - Huerter in Game 7, Lou always has a chance to go off, Gallo hitting some big shots, and Bogi had his clutch moments against the Knicks before the knee issues.  If you don't have experience, confidence can go a long way in getting you where you're trying to go and this team is very confident.  Even if they don't beat the Bucks I feel pretty good saying that we'll see a competitive series and we won't have to get the brooms out if we keep up our play.

[Wretch]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

Maybe KK for Bogi but only because Kev has stepped up as anothe ball handler.  Neither KK or Bogi are good defenders but KK was beyond elite from 3 that season... Horford for Capela is a wash imo, Capela is better in the PnR but doesn't have much else.  I think he's a marginally better rebounder than Horford and their defense is comparable (although I think Horford would have done much better 1:1 against Embiid)

Not without him and his whole family complaining about it though...smh.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

LeBron blew up our scheme and unlike Boston, they didn't have the wing talent to least make Al life easier. 

Ya'll love talking about Thompson but he didn't do shit when Al was in Boston. 

 

That is true.  He did crush Cleveland when he was with Boston.  Remember that amazing 2017 series he had against Cleveland while he was with Boston?

32.9 minutes per game, 12.4 points per game on 45% shooting, 4.2 rebounds per game

Once he had the wing talent in Boston to make his life easier, he really beasted on poor Cleveland.  I think he held TT to 7.2 rebounds and 74% shooting from the field that series.  

When you can keep a guy shooting only 74% against you and only rebounding you by 3 per game, you can look that opposing power forward in the face and tell them they didn't do **** against you as they leave for the NBA finals and you start your offseason.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

That is true.  He did crush Cleveland when he was with Boston.  Remember that amazing 2017 series he had against Cleveland while he was with Boston?

32.9 minutes per game, 12.4 points per game on 45% shooting, 4.2 rebounds per game

Once he had the wing talent in Boston to make his life easier, he really beasted on poor Cleveland.  I think he held TT to 7.2 rebounds and 74% shooting from the field that series.  

When you can keep a guy shooting only 74% against you and only rebounding you by 3 per game, you can look that opposing power forward in the face and tell them they didn't do **** against you as they leave for the NBA finals and you start your offseason.

His impact on the series was massive in 2017 and 2018 and his WAR was tops on Boston

[RandomFan]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Here's my litmus.

We know that if we replace Trae for Teague in 2015, then the 2015 team would become very hard to beat. 

But the question becomes...

Which Hawks starter in 2015 could you add to replace in 2021 that would make us overall better.

Choices are:  

A.   KK for Bogi

B.  Sap for JC 

C.   Horf for Capella 

D.   DMC for Red Velvet. 

 

 

Easily Sap for JC. Sap was so much better than what JC currently is, both on offense AND defense. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by RandomFan

[Atlantaholic]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

Here's my litmus.

We know that if we replace Trae for Teague in 2015, then the 2015 team would become very hard to beat. 

But the question becomes...

Which Hawks starter in 2015 could you add to replace in 2021 that would make us overall better.

Choices are:  

A.   KK for Bogi

B.  Sap for JC 

C.   Horf for Capella 

D.   DMC for Red Velvet. 

 

 

 KK over injured Bogi... I think healthy Bogi gets the nod over KK. Sap and JC are close... I think I will take JC because he is a lob threat and a better three point shooter, Sap is the better and more versatile defender though.

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, RandomFan said:

Easily Sap for JC. Sap was so much better than what JC currently is, both on offense AND defense. 

My dude you're high. I love Sap, but his best scoring season doesn't touch JCs best scoring season in terms of output or efficiency, and his playoff numbers in 2015 vs JCs numbers in 2021 are absolutely no contest. In fact throughout his Hawks career Sap struggled mightily to score points in the playoffs for the Hawks owning a TS% that is in the low 50s. with a terrible sub .30% 3pt percentage Vs. JC who is in the mid 60s TS and the high 39% in 3pt. JC is a better scorer from literally every single spot on the floor compared to Millsap. Defensively, Millsap was better overall, and could guard more positions, but JC has been doing work in the playoffs and has come up with some of the clutchest defensive sequences in the entire team. 

PS. Oh and worth mentioning Sap gets the edge as creator. You could give him the ball on the block and he was a better passer. 

[Atlantaholic]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

That is true.  He did crush Cleveland when he was with Boston.  Remember that amazing 2017 series he had against Cleveland while he was with Boston?

32.9 minutes per game, 12.4 points per game on 45% shooting, 4.2 rebounds per game

Once he had the wing talent in Boston to make his life easier, he really beasted on poor Cleveland.  I think he held TT to 7.2 rebounds and 74% shooting from the field that series.  

When you can keep a guy shooting only 74% against you and only rebounding you by 3 per game, you can look that opposing power forward in the face and tell them they didn't do **** against you as they leave for the NBA finals and you start your offseason.

I appreciate Horford's value to the Hawks, but man his soft ass nice guy demeaner and late career avoidance of rebounding are NOT missed. 

[Atlantaholic]

I'll take regular season Sap over regular season JC though.

[RandomFan]

4 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

My dude you're high. I love Sap, but his best scoring season doesn't touch JCs best scoring season in terms of output or efficiency, and his playoff numbers in 2015 vs JCs numbers in 2021 are absolutely no contest. In fact throughout his Hawks career Sap struggled mightily to score points in the playoffs for the Hawks owning a TS% that is in the low 50s. with a terrible sub .30% 3pt percentage Vs. JC who is in the mid 60s TS and the high 39% in 3pt. JC is a better scorer from literally every single spot on the floor compared to Millsap. Defensively, Millsap was better overall, and could guard more positions, but JC has been doing work in the playoffs and has come up with some of the clutchest defensive sequences in the entire team. 

PS. Oh and worth mentioning Sap gets the edge as creator. You could give him the ball on the block and he was a better passer. 

A guy that gets setup by Trae has a better TS% than the defacto #1 scoring option (due to being the only consistently reliable shot creator) on a team without a reliable creator to set him up for easy buckets?

You don't say...

This is one of those times stats don't tell the story. If you think JC is a better option on offense than 2015 Sap...oof.

[Atlantaholic]

16 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

A guy that gets setup by Trae has a better TS% than the defacto #1 scoring option (due to being the only consistently reliable shot creator) on a team without a reliable creator to set him up for easy buckets?

You don't say...

This is one of those times stats don't tell the story. If you think JC is a better option on offense than 2015 Sap...oof.

Small sample size but JC averaged 20ppg on 13.3 shots = 60% shooting and 50% from 3pt the 7 games he played this year without Trae. The notion that JC would stop being an absolutely elite mid-range jumpshooter and an excellent 3pt shooter without Trae doesn't hold water to me. Millsap's numbers would look better with Treae, but not sure it would raise his TS by 25%, after all, since when has he ever been a lob threat? Sap has played with some great playmakers outside of Atlanta including prime D-Will and Jokic and he has cracked 60% ts once and averaged around 56% vs JC who is at 64% for his career (and around 70% under Nate). 

[NBASupes]

Trae Young can go full LeBron 

[RedDawg#8]

On 6/22/2021 at 8:45 PM, Atlantaholic said:

Small sample size but JC averaged 20ppg on 13.3 shots = 60% shooting and 50% from 3pt the 7 games he played this year without Trae. The notion that JC would stop being an absolutely elite mid-range jumpshooter and an excellent 3pt shooter without Trae doesn't hold water to me. Millsap's numbers would look better with Treae, but not sure it would raise his TS by 25%, after all, since when has he ever been a lob threat? Sap has played with some great playmakers outside of Atlanta including prime D-Will and Jokic and he has cracked 60% ts once and averaged around 56% vs JC who is at 64% for his career (and around 70% under Nate). 

BINGO.

Maybe, just maybe, John is actually really good at basketball on his own.

 

[HawkingAwesome]

i felt bad in 2015 because of the nypd. 

[Plainview1981]

On 6/22/2021 at 1:16 PM, Wretch said:

I've done some merry-go-round with you and your Horf-love, but...shockingly, I can't disagree with you here Supes.  Give the nod to Capela for rebounding due to consistency and overall better numbers, but Horford's total package - consistent midrange, hustle, and defense - is above and beyond what we have now.  This team with prime Horford at the 4 would WASH the league...even though he's a hoe ass and I never want to see him in this city again.

I've always said that KK was the key to that team.  He's the reason why we didn't need a star (for the run at least).  When we were destroying teams, Kover was shooting out of his mind and spreading the floor.  If I remember correctly...we had convincing wins against Golden State and Cleveland that year and a healthy Hawks team could have at least taken Bron to 7 I think.

Horf and his famous disappearing act.  He was so up and down with those incredible games...and a complete DUD almost every time we needed him in the big moments.

As for the topic at hand...

2015 was bittersweet for me.  It was the first time in my 35 year Hawks-fandom that I truly gave up on the team.  So much so that I became a certified hater.  I wanted to rebuild (like Schlenk successfully did) at the outset of the Ferry regime and his approach, albeit far more developed and fruitful, was similar to Babcock's "win without losing" philosophy. Not to mention the rift that all the drama caused... Those were dark times for me as a Hawks fan, but I digress.

As is or injuries notwithstanding, this is the better team and in better position to make the Finals. 

Trae is more valuable than anyone on that 2015 roster...any combination of starters on that team.  He is a special talent that can carry us in the clutch.  He literally has done that throughout this year's playoffs.

Bogi/KK is a wash. Korver is clearly the better shooter, but Bogi is better at everything else.

Huerter's offense and ability to handle the ball over DMC's defense (and Hunter in a complete wash if we're healthy).

SAP's ability to create his own shot over JC, but not by a super wide margin.

Horf's overall package over Capela's defense and rebounding.

This bench destroys that bench.

Sap was the main guy on some decent teams... JC never will be. He is more of a 3rd or 4th option.

[aali34]

2 hours ago, Plainview1981 said:

Sap was the main guy on some decent teams... JC never will be. He is more of a 3rd or 4th option.

You could argue JC is better at being a 3rd or 4th option than Sap is at being the main guy